Ritek DVD-R's are allready not that good when burned at 1x. Let's stand 2x if you want proof. Errors will increase really fast.
2x will make these disc's bad.

Now about the link posted. The sites info was based on the same results of the C't as the ones posted here. While it was posted earlier it is more incomplete. Since they only took the error ratio.
And then added the HF-signal only for DVD+R disc's.
If the people read the article completely they would have known that AudioDev/C't thinks that measurements of HF-Signal and Tracking are as important as error ratio. Now the results of all tested disc's on the CDR-info forum consists of the results based on the average of these 3 sources of quality.

The reason why Pioneer doesn't write good on these clone disc's (Princo) is because they use an illegal id code. Now the people who own the orriginal code have asked Pioneer not to support these disc's. Because of the bad name they get because the quality isn't that good and because of there rights which are screwed.
So at this point it is prety fair. That you can't use Princo disc's because they used the manufactureing code of TDK is fair. For that reason TDK is takeing Princo to court and for that reason TDK has contacted allmost all DVD-R writer manufacturers to not support some ID's or burn them in such a way that they can't be used correct.
So if these media will be good supported with a firmware in the future is a doubt.
The best sollutions is that these clones stop makeing these clone disc's and make good disc's with an own manufacturering code and pay the licensce. If that is the case then Pioneer will give them support.
So the complaint is not to Pioneer but to all those bad firms who produced illegal and bad disc's just for cheap prices.

Also keep in mind that some factories(CMC Magnetics), are not being Illegal but are producing to poor quality what causes errors.

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Quote: "The best sollutions is that these clones stop makeing these clone disc's and make good disc's with an own manufacturering code and pay the licensce. If that is the case then Pioneer will give them support.
So the complaint is not to Pioneer but to all those bad firms who produced illegal and bad disc's just for cheap prices.#

GREED is the keyword, if this was the case. There woukld not be any low-price media and weŽd all be paying verbatim prices per disks. But yes, i fully agree with most of what you say, but i DO NOT support the thought of media manufacturers "paying" royalties or licenses to Pioneer, just to "proove" theyre media is worthy.. Thats greed in a nutshell.


Sincerely // Mike

(in reply to ReggieUK)

While we haven't read yet the CT report, i have something to mention/ask RJW. The media was by CT was checked before burned with the Pioneer and the Toshiba DVD-R drives? Or only after recorded? That makes a whole difference since as with CD-R media, some manufacturers could tune up their drives with specific media and not with others...

We could also do a similar test like the CT, but the test cost for each disc rises up to $200 ([B)][:0]) if we use AudioDev labs

(in reply to ReggieUK)

rjw it`s not always the Cheaper media that are defective and bad,i will tell you what i mean.

1.When you order a Pioneer A05 in retail you get 1peces of DVD-R and 1peces of DVD-RW Right the media that are in the retail package would be compatible whit the burner and the soft to burn included right ? then i did a test on the DVD-RW media,ripped down a file that was 3200Mb large dubble checked it against the Media whit CRC check it was OK.
Then i did burn down this 3200Mb large file on the Retail DVD-RW
burning was OK did a CRC Check and do you now what happen!!!!!!
I DID GET CRC FAULT so don`t come here and blame the media i personally think this A05 is a pice of Crap,Pioneer said that this machine would be faster and more powerful and now you see whats happening.

Maby you can explain to me why the A03 and A04 was alot better to write on all media?....


Ps:I`m owning my self a Crappy A05, before i had a A04 now problem at all.......

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Can also confirm that our testers reported CRC errors with the included Pioneer DVD-RW media during the 10 cycles.

Also have one of our testers in US whom have a 0.53 FW, and this spec has been the most successfull on all medias tested, alas not perfect.

Sincerely // Mike

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Okay, I think this thread is giving us some very important information, but I still have one question....what *IS* good??

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Well, accoring to our rather huge testresults. I would say with FW 1.00 .. quite just about no media is bulletproof on the A05/105. Seems the drive is having a bad issue overall with writing quality at speeds above 1X. Hopefully fixed with the new FW upgrade.


// Mike

(in reply to ReggieUK)

As a follow-up to my previous post I could certify as 'non working' the Creation DVD-R disks (write once) 4.7 Gb Ver. 2.0. I have been testing 5 disks of this type and recorded several type of data (huge ISO files, smaller ones etc).

The media were recognized by the DVR-105 as '1 x DVD-R media' (meaning that it would not let you choose a higher recording speed). The recording session was successfully completed - the verification process didn't make it though in any of the 5 times.

Nero reported about 100-350 errors varying from disk to disk (no matter what type of data had been recorded). The smaller number of errors were reported when the disk with the big files inside was verified (smaller number of files - smaller number of errors?).

I tried all five disks to 3 more DVD-Readers (Hitachi, Liteon and Toshiba) only the latest one managed to recognize the disk fully (ie: the system didn't 'hang' during the recognition proccess and a full directory tree was produced).

I would like say this to Pioneer and DVD-Disk manufacturers:
The end-user won't ever have to know (or to care) which factor causes the error, the medium or the device. Both will give you the very same result: Unhappy costumers.
Unhappy costumers bring together low profits, and low profits bring together bankruptcy. Whether you give the quality of the products the end-user demands, or the competent of yours will give it - sooner or later. Period.

(in reply to ReggieUK)

John. The people of AUDIODEV did also tests 2disc's of unburned media each time and then one with each burner.(Some additional disc's where burned to test some things like hacked firmware and so on.
There the Pro's so they are doing what they can do. Why do you think there that expensive[?]
Now I will mail you the german original article as soon as I can found some scanner on my school with OCR software.(In the other case I could mail you pictures. So you can read the info.)Keep in mind that for makeing an article about it you still do need the rights. Which I think you won't get. But that's your problem. )

Okay so the A05 might seem to have overal problems.

quote:

---

GREED is the keyword, if this was the case. There woukld not be any low-price media and weŽd all be paying verbatim prices per disks. But yes, i fully agree with most of what you say, but i DO NOT support the thought of media manufacturers "paying" royalties or licenses to Pioneer, just to "proove" theyre media is worthy.. Thats greed in a nutshell.

---

No GREED isn't the word not from Pioneer. It is not paying the royalties to proove theyre media is worthy. Infact at this moment Princo disc's might even not come trough the quality standards.
So it is not proven there wotrhy it is actually some controle for the users which indicate at least some quality.

Think about this if your companny would spend a fortune on R&D and then in the end you wouldn't make any profits because there is some low quality problematice discs which is running your market twice.
(1st because of they are ussing none licensced technology which they use to overtake your market. 2nd by runing your market because of quality problems so that people turn to the competitors system)

So think twice. At this moment the DVD-R market is to fragile so the compannies who want this system need to support it.

And think about this Verbatim Single sided disc's cost me 2,5 euro Princo disc's cost me 1,99. Don't you think most people will in the end be glad to pay the addition al 0,51 eurocent to be sure that I can still read these disc's over a half year and more and on most machines.

Still it is a bad case that there are even problems with the higher quality media.

(in reply to ReggieUK)

I think you are very wrong.. besides.. if you pay 1.99$ for Princo i feel sorry for u ;) .. atm, i can get them at 0.5$ volume.

About Audiodev.. im gonna post something about theyre methods later, i had very long and in-depht discussions with AudioDEV Sweden earlier this year.. however, im abit busy atm so will post about that later.
But i can tell you that theyre physical quality tests, doesnt in the end mean a media with higher rating is more compatible and/or more readable by consumer units then a media with a lower score... i will explain all this in a later post.


Well.. its still wrong to pay royalties just to get the recorder to record on your discs, Think if this was the case with CD-R drives as well.. hehe.. i cant imagine. If the discs are below quality (according to the manufacturer of the unit) .. then you get sh*t copies, Pioneer gives no guarantee on non certified media. However, in this case its clear it was deliberately made not to work.
People sure can claim how sub quality or inferior Ritek / Princo media are compared to say Verbatim. However, that doesnt explain the fact that many users burn happily on them on A03, A04, Sony DRU500 etc.. with not the slightest problem. Its just to obvious in this case the mainproblem is not the media. And well.. dont forget the fact that even Verbatim discs failed CRC check with the A05 during the 10 recording cycles.. but oh well.. im sure its just the media thats crap.

About royalties, i would say i find it just about as sane as:
Michelin would have to pay royalties to Ford, or else theyre tires would blow up once fitted onto a Ford vehicle. I accept the idea of the royalty agreement to get the official certification, naturally. However, you cant say you actually support the fact that brands not willing to pay would more or less be "banned" .. and yes, thats greed. Nothing else.

(in reply to ReggieUK)

As a comment here, I'd like to say that I have bought the PRINCO DVD-RW media for the price of 6 Euros each. The Samsung DVD-RW v.1.1 set me 11.5 Euros(!) back, and as for the Creation DVD-Rs their price in Greece was just 4.5 Euros each. Needless to say that except the Samsung DVD-RW media all the others are useless with DVR-105... That's for not being ungry with what you pay...[B)]

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Have you read the report of c't/audiodev test. Then you should know that these guys know what there doing. Trust me.
Now I would really like to see what you proof you have against there physical testing methodes makeing not better disc's.
Trust this one. I have a very bad cd-r of basf (CMC) now the cd-r is burned with a lot's of errors (according to two CDA 3000 analyzers.) Now I have the same album on a same sort of disc with a lower error ratio. Now the one with a lower error ratio can play on allmost every cd-player. The one with the high error plays flawless on my discman. But not on most other systems. Some won't accept. Some will play it with additional noise and some will skip.
Also curving seems to cause problems my erres player will not play the very rare shaped disc's fine. So how about disc's which are curved.
Now I can give you more examples that proof different. So proof that this all is imagination and that disc's can't be tested.
Oh yeah one point can be discussed the reflection. Since there are 2 systems for this with poor drives. But think again.

The reason why Princo was banned was not for paying no royalties but because of useing the codes of TDK. For that reason TDK contacted all drive manufacturers. Now what would you do: help a good willing partner which is trying to make your product a succes or say that is not our problem. Why it might be in the end. (Low quality turns people to DVD+R.).

Think about this if your local conmpetitor would sell the same thing under the same name but of inferior quality cheaper wouldn't you try to do something against it.[?] You can say no but I know you would do.

Then again in Holland we have something called the BUMA which add additional costs (0,50 eurocent) to all empty disc's.

What I am thinking is that you actually are trying to sell as much Princo disc's just because they have a very good profit marging for you. The fact that you are using an illegal/wortheless product doesn't care because you get your money. So here we have your GREED.

But I am waiting on the info you have against AUDIODEV keep in mind Verbatim scored very high and is known for good compatibility.
I am happy to learn. But only facts please not some vague theories.

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Hi!

Theres is absolutely nothing wrong with Audiodevs testing procedures, but i have a mail discussion as prrof if you would like to read it with statement from Audiodev with statement clearly that a higher score does not necessarily mean the disc is more compatible or has better playback in the majority of end consumer units. But this testinstruments are very expesnsive and very accurately, the purpose of them however, is NOT to aid end-customers in their purchase of media. But to aid R&D for manufacturers. This debate i had with Audiodev .SE earlier this year also showed the Mitsui media (cdr) that had much better signal tracking and overall score then Smartbuy/Prodisc CDR media, however, the Smartbuy/Prodisc media had better becnchmark results on the "lesser quality" media in all tests on independent drives and had better compatibility with Car cd players. According to Audiodev this is/was not a surprisem, as theyre testing procedures are for the manufacturing business primarily, and test results show physical capabilities and raw quality of the media. It is not to be used as a guide for end-customers in their purchase of media, although they might find it helpful in many cases.

The fact that Princo media was banned affects alot of brands, whom have purchased their media through Princo factories, now they take the hit... without ever knowing Princo used TDK manufacture id on discs. I didnt say they were banned because they didnt pay royalties, all i have said all the time or/ meant, is that the problem is not the quality of the media, but the FW of the drive. Which you now more or less admits yourself, thats my point. Then , ofcourse the reasons could be argued about. The bottomline, however is that this means less happy customers. We already have had over nearly 100 cancellation on 105/A05 orders only where i work, due to this issue from customers who now choose to switch to the Sony DRU500 or the Nec 1100 instead. In the end, these moves by Pioneer will do them more harm then good. And you cant really argue with me when i say the A05/1045 produces bad quality on recorded media, since it has already been prooved that just as many discs that were not Princo manufactured shows the same symptoms, even "hi quality" branded media.


Also, my company is doing a real huge "real world test" which is more helpful for end customers then the Audiodev hi technical tests are. This test includes benchmarking on recorded DVD-R and DVD-RW medias in different types of readers. This will include Transfer rates and seek times made with different readers. The medias that will be compared with eachother are the some of the following:

Verbatim DVD-R, DVD-RW
Imation DVD-R, DVD-RW
TDK DVD-R, DVD-RW
Maxell DVD-R, DVD-RW
Whitelabel DVD-R, DVD-RW
Datawrite DVD-R, DVD-RW
Neo Premium DVD-R
Bulkpaq Greentop DVD-R
Infiniti DVD-R


And many more. This real world test is more interesting for end customers, as it shows how many of the end consumers equipment will intercept, read and playback these different type of medias. Our purpose with this test is simply to show our customers some of the differences between the medias and theyre playback abilities on some of the most common DVD-Rom readers and players.

I can say already now, that Imation discs that are apparently rated very low had better results then some of the bigger brands, now there is a difference between Physical tests and real-world tests as we could clearly see, and i already have had confirmation from Audiodev that there is generally nothing strange about this. Also, due to the way different brands tunes their drives, physical test and measurements are again, not true to real-world usage.

I will post a link to this whole huge test once it has been done, it will be rather huge with graphical graphs for all medias, also due to its nature it will take a week more or so until its done.



Sincerely // Mike

(in reply to ReggieUK)

"What I am thinking is that you actually are trying to sell as much Princo disc's just because they have a very good profit marging for you"


Actually, we are selling those with very small margins. As with everything we sell, normally around 10%.

(in reply to ReggieUK)

I forgot one final thing :)

"BUMA" , i suppose is the same as Copyright taxation, this money should go to Artists? no.. In Sweden its called STIM or CopySwede. This taxation applies to all types of recordable medias, vhs, md, cd-r etc.. And is a must. however, it does NOT apply to dvd-r, dvd-rw, dvd-ram yet, and it should not within the whole European union yet. Be sure it will affect DVD-R as well within shortly though.

Also, i would watch my mouth to call the budget media wortheless, as you can read all over the internet. People use them and are very happy with them, as long as they dont own a 105 unit, this is by now a proven fact. Princo discs with the illegal TDK ID, is the EXACT same discs as the Eproformance 2X discs, and just as illegal. I have no means of greed in this matter, i dont like unsatisisfied customers though. And when i today give them the choice to either buy a 105 and buy the more expensive media, or buy another unit and you can use the budget media. The choice is up to the end customer, i need not to say what the majority has choosen. We have better margins in general for branded media such as TDK and Verbatim, i loose nothing in selling more of these medias instead. But what you dont understand is that the majority of customers has lesser interest in these medias. I rate myself not only from the point where i work, as a end customer, as i do, in difference from many others have a burning interest (not economic, but personal) in the field as well.


Sincerely // Mike

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Received this from one of our customers today. This is a list of according to Pioneer Sweden has been tested and verified OK by Pionneer and that they currently RECOMMEND customers having issues with the 105 to purchase.

NOTE carefully that Pioneer states Bulkpaq Gen 3 (r2) which are genuine Princo VX ID medias. And we all know they do not work safisfactory on the 105. Nice testing team? :) There are also more medias that has failed the simple CRC verification tests.

Click link below:

www.mobiltech-media.com/tested.jpg

Anyone dare to say that list would be very accurate? You judge..

(in reply to ReggieUK)