Hello All, I've been having trouble with 2x media, I thought I start this topic so that any other a05 owners can add their 2x media experiences to it, so that I can get a better idea of compatibile discs in their part of the planet.

So far, I have I have had problems with 2 different 2x media:

DataWrite 2x - Yellow/black Label - burn failed, Power Calibration error
Unbranded 2x - White Label - Burn failed, Power Calibration error

All my 1x media has burnt OK so far:
1x Vivastar - no label - 100% burn so far, 7 discs
1x Bulkpaq - Purple Label - 100% burn so far, 4 discs
1x DataWrite - Yellow/Black Label - RW disc, 100% burn so far, 7 discs


I'll find out what make the 2x unbranded white label discs are and post that info here too.

I have heard that taiyo yueden 2x unbranded discs are good with the a05 as are princo too, if anyone has experience with those makes of disc I would be very interested to here about them.

Thanks in advance for any help,

Hi Reggie

Have you try out CRC check on all medias that you have burn[?]
i promise you that the CRC are faulty on some of them [V]

See link: http://www.cdrinfo.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7780

Rgs

Pelle

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Hi Pelle, no I didn't try CRC checking them, but I do make nero verify the files all the way through, and had no failures so far.

I Phoned Pioneer UK tech support today, and was told that There are clones of TDK and Verbatim discs that use the manufacturer IDs (such as TDKG002.000000 more about that later) but use inferior quality dyes in their discs, and it is these inferior dyes that cause the discs to fail when burning.

The drive apparently knows the spec. of the discs according to Mfr.ID and tries to burn the disc according to that spec. but as the discs are using an inferior dye the Laser is set at the wrong 'strength' to burn that disc, so it fails after lead in.

The guy at Pioneer also told me that they are working on a new firmware release sometime in the next 2 weeks, and he also gave me a list of discs that will work with the drive. and they are also working with the disc manufacturers to improve disc build quality and compatibility.

The following are discs that *DO* work with the drive, * note these are all branded discs.
Pioneer
TDK (watch out for Clones)
Verbatim (watch out for Clones)
Maxell
CMC
Taiyo Yueden
Mitsui
Ritek 1x

although I haven't used the CRC app. on my burns so far, I have retrieved a lot of rar files from the discs, 2.5GB worth, and the files inside the .rar files unpack without CRC errors, so I guess that is almost as good a check?

The man at Pioneer (Very helpful and informative :) also told me that the 'clone' discs have a brownish or blueish tinge to the dye and are using a pure organic dye, whereas the original discs have a nice purple tinge to them, and are using a a different dye type. which is why people think that pioneer are 'banning' the cheaper media. but it's because the media actually doesn't meet the correct specifications and isn't of good enough quality.

Now, I used the advdinfo app. to check the manufacturer ID of both of the 2x discs that failed and they both turned out to be 'TDKG002.000000'. This was on a Datasafe 2 speed and an unbranded white Label disc, so it appears that the man at Pioneer is correct.

Also, there *IS* some information on the Pioneer website about which media the drive can handle, it's a little hard to find but it is there in the FAQ section.

Click here (Edited from webmaster )

So, I guess at the moment we will have to wait and see what occurs in the next couple of weeks over firmware.

(in reply to ReggieUK)

I would like to add that Ritek's 1x DVD-Rs are actually 2x, they just didn't pay for the certifcation. I know this is true of all their current DVD-Rs, though some older stock might be different. I have this straight from Ritek.

It's true that the "clone" CD-Rs and DVD-Rs are a big problem. What happens is the bigger manufacturers sell their stompers to smaller factories, so the ID, or ATIP remains the same, but the process in which they are made tends to change. Thus calibration is more difficult for CD/DVD writers, and new firmware is required to identify the writing strategy properly. It's not the writer's fault, or even the quality of the media, it's the fault of the factories that are too cheap to get their own ATIP. At least that's how I understand it.

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Hi Reggie

Ok that is what they say Pioneer,but in fact sometings are wrong,You see SONY did also blame the "Bad Media" and after alot of complain
from customers they have make a new FW and NOW all this so called BAD media works 100% so all that the guy at Pioneer told you sorry to say but i don`t belive a s**t on the guy from Pioneer,there are 3 Big manufactures of brand media in the world and one of them are making a big test to see if it the same problem in A05 as it was in Sony Burner and if they find same "misstake" on cheaper brand media they will drag Pioneer to court "They hard testing media right now"

Cheers:Pelle

(in reply to ReggieUK)

At the end of the day, we just have to wait and see what develops from Pioneer in the way of firmware over the next couple of weeks. I'm not saying that I completely believe Pioneer, but it's the only information that I have to go on, apart from my own findings with discs.............

Pelle, as for this company maybe taking Pioneer to court, it's a little bit premature for that kind of reaction, especially when the word from Pioneer is that there is likely to be a firmware update that will fix some issues with certain discs.

I am more inclined to go with Dolphinius on this one, as pioneer have already stated that they are working with disc manufacturers to improve the build qualities of their discs.

and until some one comes up with hard evidence to the contrary for any issues with the a05, I'm sticking with what I know (Avoid TDKG002.000000 clones like the plague!!)

(in reply to ReggieUK)

DVD-R Media Test Information over here. According to the test:

- The following media is bad (i.e. error rate turned out higher than allowed by specs):

DVD-R: Princo 1x, DataTrack, RitekG01 (HiSpace), CMC, Vivastar
DVD+R: Ricoh (!!), Ritek

- Good media:

DVD-R: Maxell, RitekG01 (Emtec), Pioneer, Mitsui, Matsush*ta, TDK, Mitsubishi
DVD+R: Mitsubishi

For more information check that thread!

(in reply to ReggieUK)

You see John all info that i have posted are correct Pioneer have inplanted some about this cheap media in there FW. All media that have been sucessfully have payed pioneer to be in there FW so thats why Princo and other cheap media fail [xx(] ....

quote:

---

Originally posted by john

DVD-R Media Test Information over here. According to the test:

- The following media is bad (i.e. error rate turned out higher than allowed by specs):

DVD-R: Princo 1x, DataTrack, RitekG01 (HiSpace), CMC, Vivastar
DVD+R: Ricoh (!!), Ritek

- Good media:

DVD-R: Maxell, RitekG01 (Emtec), Pioneer, Mitsui, Matsush*ta, TDK, Mitsubishi
DVD+R: Mitsubishi

For more information check that thread!

---

(in reply to ReggieUK)

As REX said, i believe the problem here is the used media (partially) and of course the A05. I am sure Pioneer will do their best to fix this situation shortly...[:I]

(in reply to ReggieUK)

The company i work for and represent, as a reseller of the Pionner DVD-R/W product line, i would have nothing to gain really by our current propaganda campaign regarding the latest A05 unit. However, we care for our customers, secondly we are Swedens largest importer and reseller for Princo and Ritek maufactured media with up until now, MANY happy customers ... well.. the A05 changed all that, And NO the media didnt.

Inhouse testing on the A05 has also generated discs of sub-quality on many other brands upon verification process. Oftenly just small areas of corrupted written data, however, even how small doesnt matter. In the case of a Video DVD , sure a quick glitch is forgiveable. But for a data backup? No.. its not ok.

More discs that generated bad quality results include:

Imation DVD-R (50/50), Maxell DVD-RW (6 out of 10 burns ok, each 4 with errors in the data field), Traxdata (Ritek) DVD-R (to many errors... way to many :), Eproformance 2X media (perfect result at 1X, bad crap at 2X), Bulkpaq Generation 4 2X (Perfect at 1X, some errors occasionally at 2X), BULKDVD 1X (actually Princo media) 50/50 at best.

The conclusion is that the problem does not lye within specific media, but rather the unit itself. Sony had an almost identical problem as this with their DRU 500 with the final discs having CRC erorrs. NOTE! Discs may be written and seem to be ok, many people doesnt understand this. You need to also verify the discs to realise this problem. In Sonys case, a new firmware took care of the problem, and voila... Princo discs works great. Coincidence? Perhaps.. or just an intentional spawn of the "not-so-official" Anti-Princo campaign? Well.. in Sony's case, we probably wouldnt know. In Pioneers case? Well, i know there are investigations being made by the source of the media.

Its easy to say, or perhaps think the problem would be the media. But then, ber in mind the following. The very same discs that has a very high failure level on the A05, works VERY good with the A03+A04. If the problem is the media? Then why doesnt it affect these units? Actually... even with Gradius FW hack 2X4ALL on the A03 and A04, for instance Bulkpaq Gen 3 1X will work very very good at 2X writing speed, and doing 100% upon verification process. We still believe the media is the problem? I didnt since day 1, since i know about the underlying hate against Princo that many large actors in the media field and unit manufacturers share. Why? Well.. just use common sense and you will understand, it is actually rather obvious.

A VERY important note about the A05 is to see that errors seems quite solely being given birth to at higher writing speeds then 1X. Heat problem? Or laser intensifying/power calibration error? I still have grave doubts the media is the rotten dog in this case.



Mike Andersson

Import / Export Director

Mobil Tech Media Sweden

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your info. We also confirm the problems with branded Princo 2X DVD-R (written at 2X) and with Princo 1X DVD-RW (written at 1X). The disc were burned ok, but cannot read 100% accuratly. Here we can find, even in limited amounts, Taiyo Yuden 2X DVD-R media for 3 Euro (1-10 pieces bulk), and didn't had any problems with that media. Pioneer should be aware of this problem and hopefully will fix it soon. [8)]

PS. After searching around the net i found this interesting thread:

"...Pioneer is aware of a number of disks on the market that do not conform to the DVD forum standards for DVD-R disks, Pioneer has never recommended the use of these disks and we can not support there use in our drives, We are investigation the problems that users are having using the Eproformance disks and all other DVD-R disks.

We have found that a large number of disks that have the incorrect media ID codes on them will not work in our drives, this is a fault with the disks. Pioneer will be updating the firmware to add new media to the 2x and 4x lists within the firmware and we will also be update the firmware to improve the usability with correctly made disks.

Richard Fraser
Pioneer GB.."

And the same guy continues "...rang pioneer customer services this is what they said. they told me that all cheaper dvdr-media isnt gonna work with a05 as intended. that it writes in 2x with unusable result and that only a few cheap dvdr's work and then you are limited to 1x speed. customer service guy advised me to buy an a04 with firmware 1.31 or buy expensive media..."

(in reply to ReggieUK)

I had the opportunity to test this specific drive (DVR-105) since I own one for about a week now. I have tried several media with this drive and I can say for sure that this device surely is very 'hand-picking' as far as it concerns the DVD-RW media it accepts (or atleast that I have tried). I have first tried Princo v.1.1 4.7 DVD-RW media (4,7Gb) for a data backup (4,0Gb amount of data). The drive recognized it perfectly and burned successfully at 1x DVD speed. Never started the verification process though. Stucked with an error: No media inserted. Retried the same media at the JLMS-163 (Liteon) DVD. No media inserted error again. Tried to erase the media in the Pioneer -no media inserted error once more. Finally, I had a success, but with an anorthodox way really... I have tried to burn a new DVD-RW disk and inserted the previously written Princo media. The Nero recognized (!) the data into the disk and quick erased after a prompt. The disk was written - but yet again - not readable. The disk turned faulty from this point (no 'tricks' worked on erasing it or turning it into usable again). I have followed the same proccess with a Samsung DVD-RW v. 1.1. The disk was written successfully at 1x and was readable by all my DVD Devices. The conclusions are yours...

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Hi,

And thanks for the feedback.

First, if this problem can be fixed with a FW update, then i again question the fact if the source to the problem is the media or the way the current FW was coded. Would you not agree?

Naturally, we should all agree that budget dvd-r medias are NOT made using the same expensive rawmaterials as eg; Verbatim discs are, Sanitation and environmental aspects are sub-quality compared to the same, and last.. quality control falls into the same cathegory. But!.. hence the price, it is nothing but logical. You can spend 10K on a brand new car and it will run perfect for 3 years, then it starts to rust into oblivion, engine errors, the interior starts wearing off due to its quality and so on... or you could had bought a new car for 30K, it would run just as good, or even better for 8 years before showing those symptoms. The key behind this is naturally the process of manufacturing in the first case and the raw material and distributors are cheaper.. hence the price again. This is a pretty general fact that anyone should bear in mind.

Naturally Pioneer wouldnt ever admit to being "wrong", neither would i if i played such a corporation. It is by facts like the ones above i just stated very easy for Pioneer to refer to the medias as sub-quality and not working. But the question really is, Did Pioneer intentionally work to MAKE them work with the A05, and in the end found out they rather leave them aside. Or did they rather work to NOT make them work correctly. You think about it for awhile.. it is easy to speculate now, but if we see a new FW within the "promised" 2 weeks and this whole issue changed drastically.. would you not have doubts? Its a dirty business, beneath all the glory so is all major markets. The end-customer never sees the power which drives and forces the market, and has no idea what the intentions behind it is. We cannot change that, not now , not ever.

I must say i find it rather hilarious that the Pioneer representative recommended getting a "inferior" product in case one wanted to use cheaper brands, specifically cheaper brands that doesnt kneel for Pioneer. Its like you walk into a GSM store and complains that your brand new Nokia 7210 has a bad standby and the seller recommends you to get hold of an inferior product because it has better batteries supplied with it, or it has lesser power consumption. This is like admitting "Yes, we make and develop new products, but we dont make better products in some areas".


Anyway, just an hour ago i received some of the last testresults which Scandinavian customers and volunteers has made on our expense (supplied media). The result can be found following the link below, if you take a good look at it, you might be surprised to see some very unexpected makes failing. Overall, looking at this, i must say that tha failure quote is far over the limit for what you can possibly accept.

I still await 3 more testresults to come back, but i think the ones received already speaks for themselves. Also, Kudos to Sony for responding very quickly to their similar problem with the DRU 500, i have myself tested Bulkpaq's green+purple on the early revision of DRU 500 with failure, and have had full success with the new FW.


Results:

www.mobiltech-media.com/a05_testresults.txt


Sincerely

Mike Andersson

Import/Export Director

Mobil Tech Media Sweden

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Hi Mike,

Could you make this report in Excel format and send it over?

(in reply to ReggieUK)

Final report will be compiled in excel once i get the last results in, hopefully during the day or at latest during weekend.


Sincerely // Mike

(in reply to ReggieUK)

I would also like a copy if you don't mind?
or just post a link to the excel doc and I'll get it myself

(in reply to ReggieUK)