Hey The Amazing ZamZiBam

You Say "I have not posted in a forum for a long time"
I bet those Forums were really PLEASED !!

You Say " In other word's I am not asking anyone if this works, I am telling you how it works."
You remind me of another Old English Commedian ( Max Bygraves )his catchphrase was "I wan't to tell you a Story " but unlike yours it was not a bedtime or fairy tale story!!

You Say " but just as it is a "POSSIBLE" BETA test of a new security system being designed by an un-named security company,"
If you want a Beta tester can I sign up

I have met some boring people in my Life but never one as boring as you ! You are just babbling on about nothing !
Look I don't care what protection they put on CD's there is always a way of getting round it. And I for one will always back-up my legally purchessed CD's choose what 's like you say! The only time I will not do it is when publishers start using good reliable Media that does not scratch easy or loose the ability to read data after a few years.

So to finish I will say STOP preaching your rubbish nobody is listening not even the Greedy Publishers !! And when you put the new protection on I will show you how easy it is to by-pass it and even if I fail I know people that will not fail!! I will also say like most members of this Forum I am dead against Piracy but never against making a back-up for my own use !!!
Anyway Enough Said

Laffin Assassin

Always remember to Pillage BEFORE you Burn


Edited by - Laffin Assassin on 07/26/2002 08:54:07

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

The thread continues, but specifically this post is a response to CLINT where he mentioned a EFM...

Do not look at any limits of the reading device or the firmware which allows the actual error correction. I have a vague example, but it only argues how a CD-Rom drive operates. So this might explain something you missed. It is a vague example.

The CD-Rom is inserted. It is read. A threshold is standard to the CD-Rom specification, which allows for specific inconsistencies on the disc. In other words, it allows a certain amount of variation between data. This is something that is transparent to all users, as it basically denotes how a CD-Rom operates. This is however firmware and or software error correction for the simple reason as to allow further file formats to exist on the disc, allowing more powerful lasers and or CD-Rom drives to work at a more intense level and speed. In other words the data could be more condensed on a more powerful drive than it could on most standard drives. This threshold however as I said is basic to error correction. So to repeat myself, various errors are allowed that are standard to the operation of the drive and this is to allow various manufacturing processes to be compatible, because after all, not every manufacturer even though using the same concept and specification, makes the same quality disc. Now since we know there is a threshold, than we also know that the best cd-rom media coupled with the best drive on the market will work alot better not because of the basic speed and dataspace representation, but also because less correction will have to be made by the drive. With that said, there is something more obvious. CD-Rom Media manufacturing will always be one better than the other, but CD-Rom devices, can be duplicated so the chances of one drive being as good as the next is higher. This is not a concept now, this is fact. So I am saying just about every CD-Rom drive out there is capable of reading not so much at a specific speed but at a specific constant. Much like a scanner. So it does not matter if the data read is to be interpreted, it just has to know that a specific area has to be accessed. Everyone argues that this error will stop this and that. Look at it like this. put the CD-Rom on a scanner "DON'T ACTUALLY DO THAT" it's not an eprom but the same concept. Every time you scan the CD, it will scan a linear phase. TRUE?!. If you turn the CD at an angle and scan it again, it will do the same thing. Now imagine a PRISM and that is basically what the IOMEGA drive protection key looks like. Just two planes if you turn the CD-Rom and it scans it than if you have two squares that are at an angle, the deflection will be different, because it refracts different. Now imagine the CD-Rom that is not stationary. First of all we know that the read head will always be at the same position, relevant to the angle of the CD-Rom, so the planes can not be at different angles. CORRECT!?. O.K. This is STATIC, now DYNAMIC allows error correction, which will be at the same dataspace location, but will be corrected. The reason being, that the phyisical position and angle on't change, but the deflected angle will be different simply because the the drive will correct. Sort of like RAW as to DEFINED read. In other words, it's obvious that someone can crack that. It's practically saying. LOOK everyone, patch me here and the game will work, but the signature will not be duplicated. It's a simple as reading the same dataspace at 1X and at 24X. After all, why would you want to copy a protected CD at 1X, why do you get a better read. Because the slower speed allows more accuracy and as it corrects over and over, it is more likely to find the right answer. Where if you go faster, it does the same thing, but is less likely to be able to conform to a no error state. It's designed to conform to that idea so it takes away attention from what it really has. A signature. The concept is straightforward, but it's not as obvious. So that is the idea, but what is not obvious is that it's the actual MATERIAL that is impossible to find and using the same principle as the PRISM, the material can be altered. So this is a thin line between the actual operating concept of a CD-Rom drive and the actual physical ability for material to change it's properties. Much like a CDRW but it is not a CDRW drive, but those are the characteristics since you have polymorphic dataspace that can not actually be chaged without changing the properties of the material, which in turn can only change to the drives signature. All CD-Rom drives are different. SO ONE LAST TIME! Even though it can pick up a signature. Another software package, such as a FIRMWARE update will allow the DRIVE to provide an alternate signature. In other words, if the FIRMWARE is a registry key in Windows 2000 than it can be compromised by the CDR. Sounds funny, but as soon as people start getting logged off of game servers it will be more obvious. To security administrators, the dataspace will also be more obvious and perhaps the best intervention is the safest measure for high security systems. Once the CD was in that drive. It will never leave the facilities and etc. but that's getting into the legal information again.

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

sorry, i can't see it happening. i admit that what you postulate has some degree of credibility. i also admit that your education on the inner workings of cdrom devices and iso 9660 far exceed mine. but your signature depends on the individual differences of cd reading devices. i don't believe that the great majority of these devices are capable of detecting such a signature. also, what would you do with those that can't? just like with securom protected cds, if a reader is incapable of reading subchannel data then the protection is disabled just so it can be used in these devices. you can't sell a product that the consumer can't use because you purposely screwed it up. it also seems to me that once the cd was read in a reader then it would be unusable in any other reader because the signature wouldn't match. i guess that would preclude upgrades. not to mention that it would be an extremely expensive proposition to create.

i used to spend a whole lot of time pondering such things myself. but since i quit smoking that sh!t i feel a whole lot better.

just kidding bud! (i think)

___________
netman
netman@cdrtimes.net

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Hi netman
You took the words out of my mouth !!!
But he only wants to talk to Clint!!!
I am just waiting for the reply if he is going to make me a Beta tester !!!
And also I am still waiting for the punch line I would still like to bet it has something to do with StarForce!!!

Laffin Assassin

Always remember to Pillage BEFORE you Burn


Edited by - Laffin Assassin on 07/26/2002 20:59:43

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Another thought I have had the last time I saw words put together like this it was Burner1000000 but I don't think he would do anything like this do you !!!

Laffin Assassin

Always remember to Pillage BEFORE you Burn

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

I want to be a beta tester too. I bet it would tkae longer to open the case than copy the disc....

Visit www.cdrtimes.net too. Another great place....

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Once again, a good comment in my opinion from CLINT. I mean an excellent comment and I agree exactly with what you said. Now with that said (not being sarcastic) double check what I wrote again and keep this in mind. With todays readers it is sometimes better to read at a higher speed, BUT if the software requires can it make the device still read at a slow speed if it wants to. Obviously the answer is yes and this should shed light on the part that I was referring to, where it is necessary through the error checking for the burner to get the right sequence without an error. At the same time I think, ahead and if someone tries to break the protection with a high speed bypass, than the software can match it by correcting the timing. But that's another segment. Read what I said ahead, with what you wrote in mind and with what I added to what you wrote.

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)