Common sense should be taken when examining a copy protection scheme such as this. The author writes that there is a segment on the CD-Rom that is useless data designed for difficulty of copying. Let me examine this from a different point of view. Copy protection in general is broken usually before the protected system is even released. For this reason it should be sensible to note that there is more to protecting a disc in this way than to cause a simple nuisance of backup. We should also note that most modern 3D games are going online. Let's examine this concept. Why would we want a large test pattern in a CD if we know everyone will be able to back it up not much after it's released. Well, digital signatures. We know how CD-RW works. Well, CD-RW has material that have properties that can change. For this simple reason, if this type of a pattern were added to a CD-Rom on a track, than when the player plays the game online, a signature can be noted into that pattern. Since most online games require that you have at least the CD-Rom inserted to play. After all, if it is protected, why should you use the CD-Rom when most games allow full installation. Now the question is, would the manufacturer just ad a CD-RW style track. I don't think so. Let me explain why. Believe it or not, if the material is sensitive enough, than you don't even need a CD-R or CD-RW drive to write to it. Simply reading the data, can access certain properties of certain materials. In this way, all anyone has to do, is make sure there is a random pattern in the regular CD-R. Even if it is finalized, the material will still be reactive to lasers. So when the cd-is read, it can create a signature based on what cd rom unit accessed it. The legality is of course questionable. The reason for that is that a user has to have full knoweldge of all dataspace on their computer. Otherwise proper security administration can not be done. In other words if this is done, the manufacturere has to tell everyone about the feature. So at this time, if anyone finds any software like this, a serious lawsuit can be made if data on that system was compromised. Now. Let me explain how something like SafeDisc2 could be used. You have a random pattern. When online, you register and the registration software allows the software itself to read the error prone area. As it is read, let's say you have the random bit pattern
0001010101010001110.
As soon as the first bit is read, it forces the next bit to change properties thus rendering it to 1 instead of 0. Now if you copy the game, the same bit pattern is too difficult to write, so another bit patter will be generated on the copy. They know that. So if someone figures out how to duplicate the physical properties and manufactures cd-s like that, than what will happen is the registration number will test against the serial number and bit pattern. And the same serial number should not come up with another bit pattern unless that is so. Guess what. The legality as I said is extreme. The reason is, tht someone can buy a game. Say it was defective and return it to the store. Once this is done, the protection is defeated legally. In other words it works, but guess what. Even if you can't get your money back, you compromised the security of the computer or another user by returning the game and it is legal to return defective games. So if someone else gets the software and you have a registered pattern. Than the data buffer can be used because the game maker is protected by the reverse engineering law.

So What is your Point
If you have come on this site to preach about us making Back-ups of our Original Programs that we have Legally Purchessed forget it. I for one have always made a backup for my own use and always will choose what protection is on it ! And if you are talking about W.a.r.e.z you are on the wrong site as the biggest part of members are like me Dead Against Piracy but will make copies of Legally purchessed programs for their own use incase of failure of the Original which happens often with an accident!!!
So pray tell us what was the point of your Post !!!!
Just don't say StarForce or everybody on here will laugh there Heads off !!!
Laffin Assassin

CD-ROM ---- Consumer Device, Rendered Obsolete in Months !!!
The Definition of an Upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in !!!
What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them ???



Edited by - Laffin Assassin on 07/23/2002 18:11:51

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

this is a very far-fetched scenario and i'd be interested in learning where you got this material. i have a very hard time believing that simply reading a glass-mastered cd will change the physical properties to the extent that it can be signatured. this would require knowing the physical capabilities of every cdrom, dvdrom, and writer on the market, along with any that will be developed.

___________
netman
netman@cdrtimes.net

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

I got bored about 1/2 way through that post and just quit reading it. Fell asleep........ LOL....

Visit www.cdrtimes.net too. Another great place....

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Hey Guys
I smell a StarForce advertising campaign comming again!


Laffin Assassin

CD-ROM ---- Consumer Device, Rendered Obsolete in Months !!!
The Definition of an Upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in !!!
What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them ???

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Good, we could use some additional revenues from advertising. Those casino ads pay ****...!

Visit www.cdrinfo.com - The Recording Authority

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Hey John
You don't think that they will pay you do you
They have come out with this so called Unbeatable protection and it is not Unbeatable it is Unfindable as nobody wants it !
They haven't sold it to anyone yet so how are they going to pay for advertising !

Laffin Assassin

CD-ROM ---- Consumer Device, Rendered Obsolete in Months !!!
The Definition of an Upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in !!!
What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them ???

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Actually they have some customers in the Russian and ASIA/Pacific area. Maybe soon we will see a major title with StarForce protection? Time will tell!

Visit www.cdrinfo.com - The Recording Authority

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Hi John
If it was as good as they say it is the big Publishers would have snapped it up by now wouldn't they and if it was Unbeatable they would be Multi-Millionaires overnight. But as I keep saying about Digital Data Protection it dosen't matter how good it is there is always someone Wiser who can bypass it and there always will be

Laffin Assassin

CD-ROM ---- Consumer Device, Rendered Obsolete in Months !!!
The Definition of an Upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in !!!
What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them ???

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Yeah I'm with Tron, didn't even get a quarter of the way down !!



_________________
You get what you pay for...

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

I would like to apoligize for the illiterate post. Let me make up for it with some justification. I have not posted in a forum for a long time, so I skipped some basic rules. I started this thread under the assumption that most people look at this topic with varried perspective. So I do not make any 100% definition to anything other than opinion. For example, one of the responses on how lasers work and etc. First of all, I do not need anyone to explain that, but do argue. Even the slightest transference of light has an effect on a material, provided that the material is sensitive enough to react. In other words, it is obvious that a standard CD-Rom will not be affected by the laser, but material that is different can be effected, and if the CD-Rom is called BLANK Corporation CD-Rom it does not mean that is what it is or that is who makes it. What I went on to explaining is a possible use of this concept and the SafeDisc2 copy protection scheme, seems to be the perfect system to use for what I was explaining. Unfortunately, as I said, I skipped some rules, so I went from defining a technology to arguing how it would be used in a legal form and etc. I still stand by what I wrote and further posts should clear up the illiterate post. As for the technology, let me be more specific. If we have an area on the disc, that if it is read by a laser such as a CD-Rom after it is copied; it does not play, because it was not properly copied because of that protection, than it is a protection scheme. Now after a while, people will crack this protection and it will be common for most software packages to follow a working crack scheme. In other words, a system of cracking the protection will be made. As this scheme becomes obsolete and the pattern is matched the problem will have been solved. However, what will have happened is an internal signature pattern will have been retained. In other words, the crack covers up the pattern, but does not properly duplicate it. As this is so, very distinct and sensitive properties of materials, will remain on the original discs, but will not be duplicated on the copies. So the copies will work just the same on your system, however if you play them online, the signatures will not be properly duplicated. So on a server, the administrators will be able to check your CD for a proper signature and knock you off of the server for example, or a snoop will be able to e-mail you asking you why the signature does not validate and etc., also please read the pattern explanation one more time and if confused ask, it is actually simple. I did explain everything, though I admit I just dumped the data. As for the responses, I welcome them, except now that I have a better bearing on the thread, please ask about anything else that is not obvious or understandable. In other words, all arguments you may have, I have a good response for as long as it pertains to my first post!. Sorry for the confusion!. NOTE! If it is being tested, the legality is questionable!. END NOTE!

Alright, I suppose there are a few more notes to be added. First, I am proposing the concept, but I am not proposing a question. In other word's I am not asking anyone if this works, I am telling you how it works.

It is obvious and important to note that an individual has the right to protect intellectual property and etc. At the same time, it is just as if not more important to note the damage this can do to the intellectual properties of others. One person can think up an idea that can damage many persons position, but one argument to that idea can protect the many persons position as well as that individuals. Let me go into the legal part of the concept. If there are any technical questions ask, but here is the concept once it is understood how it works and that it does work. If you have a dataspace that is on your system that is proven to be impossible to duplicate, at the same time that it is varied in signature, than you have unknown dataspace. In other words, the signature is designed so that if you purchase the original and you decide to give it away or sell it, the signature will evolve with the original sor of like a polymorphic signature based on a single key. For example if the cd-rom is protected by a hologram, than the varied key can reflect off of the hologram making it impossible to duplicate. At the same time it carries and matches any signatures in any drive it goes into. No 2 drives can match a random burn pattern. All this is great and an awesome idea, but you also have an un-identified dataspace. In other words, you have writeable space on the cd-rom that can not be duplicated, but the random signature can theoretically and conceptually take random data. Here is an argument. OVERBURNING. If you overburn a CD-Rom, it can have varied lenght!? Correct?! So is that not the same thing!? No! Because the adminstrator who would have to contemplate this, could base security on a finalized segment with no possibility to read beyond a specific point on the disc. With a varied signature, you have random dataspace that is different and is part of the data segment that has to be read and can not be patched. What I am saying is, you can not detect this in SafeDisc2 at the time, but just as it is a "POSSIBLE" BETA test of a new security system being designed by an un-named security company, you have the possibility that someone else knows this and can use the BETA test for a simple backdoor, such as nothing more than getting for example a single registry key off of your system. Does THAT make more sense!? In other words, it's just as illegal and I would say out of 100%, less than a quarter of 1% would know how to check for this type of material on the CD-ROM! It's theoretically that sensitive!

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Can someone please tell me what the asterisks removed. I did not curse in the text, so next time I post I would like to know what that was about!

P.S. What the F*** is StarForce!?

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

NEVER MIND! DON'T USE C.R.A.C.K!?

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)

Man... I could not sleep, but after reading all that I am ready now....... G'night all.....

Visit www.cdrtimes.net too. Another great place....

(in reply to The Amazing ZamZiBam)