To give a quick answer, CD-Doctor and WSES report the same amount of errors, since probably using the same retrieving commands...The results seems to agree with our tests and of course more media will show behaviour with different media. [:I]

(in reply to sambs0)

"There are some strange stuff in here that make me doubt some results."
Oh, well: me too![:I]

In the previous post, I tried to highlight anything important but it was too much to. So, I'm remindering some points:

1. The CD Doctor does not work with the Yamaha F1 drive while does with the Sony as it's Lite-On based. So, only it could be used for tests.
By the way, I'm positive, the upgrade (FW=S60A) was done properly. The drive performs very well, no doubts.
2. The CD Doctor provides two choices for reading the media: 8x (suitable for any modern burner) and maximum for the given drive, which is 52x for my Sony. This has nothing to do with the speed the disks were written at.
3. When switching between 8x and 52x modes, every CDR was reinserted in the drive to maximally avoid any influence of the preceeding run.
Of course, the same CDR of a particular make and given burner was used in both modes.
4. All the tested CDRs were written at 4x; no AAMQR. I set the read spead for CD copying to 24x even though the original CD was writable, not pressed. It's hard to suspect that the images created along the way by the Sony and Yama differed from each other.

[^]This morning I reran the tests for the created by the Sony CDRs of Prodisk and Mitsubishi makes to check the noticed contradictions. I present them in the table below.

Again, both CDRS are created by CRX220E1 at 4x.
From left to right, Min, Max, and Avg error rates show.
In the left pane of the table are the today's results. In the right one - yesterday's. I've pooled them over here just for a convenience of reading.
In the table, I've highlighted the data which is inconsistent in advance. Other deviations, even they're significant, by my opinion, are within an acceptable to be trusty range.

Of course, to make some definite conclusions, many more testings have to be performed. I can't do this.


Prodisk Technologies (Circuit City brand) = PD-CC:

C1@8x___________0______17_______3.151=====0___14096_______6.366[:0]
C2@8x___________0_______0_______0========0___16663_______3.893[:0]
C1@52x__________0_____155______15.504=====0_____138______10.328
C2@52x__________0______11_______0.005=====0______45_______0.019[xx(]

Mitsubishi Chemicals (Verbatim brand) = MC-VB:

C1@8x___________0______16_______4.587=====0______18_______4.045
C2@8x___________0_______0_______0========0_______0_______0.000
C1@52x__________0_____366______64.887=====0_____195______33.538[xx(]
C2@52x__________0______38_______0.022=====0______94_______0.028[xx(]

[?][:0]"Does the jitter make any difference to your ears? Have you played the CDs in your home stereo?"
Good question!

Well, first off, why the jitter alone?! I'm sure, C1 and C2 errors do add to the listening experience. Also, for many players (not just older ones!), the CDR layer structure and thickness distribution along its radius may make a big difference.[}:)]

Anyhow, of course, I tried to see. Yet a few days ago, I burned my last TY (FujiFilm branded) 24x CDR via CRX220E1 at 4x and listened to it in a good sound system. Both me and my wife love the clarity and richness of the sound. Indeed, vast majority of people won't notice any difference between CRX220E1 and F1 burns. At least, not me.[|)]

By the way, I've run the CD Doctor over this disk as well. It's perfect C1/C2 state is quite comparable with the one of the discussed 48x TY-FF make! In other words, FujiFilm by Taiyo Yuden CDRs are equally good whether they are 24x or 48x certified - for an audio recording.

[:(!]As for the current CDRs... Oh, well... I have a problem.[V]
My Aiwa system (it's 6 years old) is hardly asking for a maintenance (heads cleaning up) so that I can't use it now. My boombox, however, plays everything great but... you know...

But you know what? Next month we're gonna host a world name violinist (or at least his mother). I'll pass these CDRs (with Jewish music) by Prodisk and Taiyo Yuden to him (not just for the testing only, I'm sorry). We'll see what he feels about their sound quality.

I'll let you know but in the meanwhile let's keep going ours way.

(in reply to sambs0)

I Will leave this one to you JOHN I am not into Violins !!!

(in reply to sambs0)

So you have burned the cd's at 4x and the crc errors reported by diskdoktor is the errors on the sam CD with different read speeeds? Do I unserstand you corretly?

If I do, why have you done it like this? Wouldn't it be better if you took a pressed audio cd, ripped it with yamaha and sony and burned it at 4x and max (52/44) and the test it for crc errors? Now what you see is the sony abilities to read burned cd at different speeds. From what I see out of your latest results, this ability varies greatly each time you run the test (prodisk results).

(in reply to sambs0)

To Boy_Wonder:

1. I ran comparison between the two drives on their ability in QUALITY audio recording, rather than just DATA recording, because the former tells much more about a CDRW abilities at all. Even though in general, I care more about writing the data rather than a music. But the audio writing itself is also count![:X]
2. Writing at maximum supported speeds (44x and 52x accordingly) doesn't do any good for the purpose[V]. For the audio recording, it is not appropriate at all: 24x, I think, is as high as you can go. Please note that this almost does not depend on the way you write music (from hard disk data or CD copying). Almost because at 1x, 4x and 8x the Yamaha's Advanced Audio Recording automatically kicks in when writing disk at once from data on the hard disk (while not when copying a CD of a conventional format!).
3. It is already proved (please see appropriate reviews) that AAMQR does do the job, so that no other burners can match the Yamaha F1 in this mode. At least, when it comes to the jitter level (and, I believe, C1/C2 errors). Whether somewhat overdigitalised AAMQR sound is better than a normal one for someone's ear - is another story!
4. I do not want to check the AAMQR mode as am not going to use it on more or less regular basis.
5. The F1 drive writes music at 4x very well. So well, that according to John's review in this mode it outperforms compaired burners by Plextor and Teak in their best possible for the purpose modes. All the same, from that review I conclude that the F1 writes audio, beside the AAMQR mode, at a peak quality at 4x (well, 1x is really way too slow). The same for the compaired burners.
6. As for the Sony CRX220E1, yet I cannot assume that its peak audio writing speed is 4x too. It very well may be 16x or 24x.[:I]
7. However, I have to stick to something definite! It does not make sense, at this time with that much info I have about the burners, to compare the Yamaha's 4x to Sony's 16x audio writing quality. This might have an independent value but... only after a lot of info on the issue has been accumulated elsewhere! For now, I have to assume that 4x is also the best audio recording speed for the Sony.
8. On the other hand, I'm not able to run more or less exhaustive tests on burners. Not at all! So, I have to reasonably limit myself.
9. As for the CD Doctor...[?]
- It's only in the development stage, especially the English version;
- It is also a beta version, thus has some bugs and imperfectnesses;
- Of course, it would be nice to be able to test at intermediate speeds, say 4x, 16x, 24x, 40x; but not yet!
- Read speed of 8x is undoubtedly gives more trusty and universal results than the "maximum drive speed"; as the first approach, I'd even suggest to ignore my results at 52x reading![}:)]

[:p]The way I've set up my tests, allowed me to make conclusions on the next:
1. How the CD Doctor performs on my burners. This has an independent value because of multiple threads not only on the CDRInfo forum.
2. Audio writing quality of different medias in my posession. In particular, I was concerned about the Verbatim (by Mitsubishi) versus FujiFilm (by Taiyo Yuden) CDRs.
3. Audio writing quality of the burners in posession. I agree with John that C1/C2 test is yet not everything in the issue, but they do tell a lot!
4*. Reading ability, via the CD Doctor, of the Sony drive. Well, you did make a good point here but... This is hardly my concern.

[:X][}:)]At this time, I'm not going to perform any additional comparison tests. I've posted all the information I have. The more extensive tests and reviews from the trusty sources on the comparison are coming soon.

I do not see a good reason to discuss the issues like inconsistencies of the test results over and over again.
Let's wait![:p][xx(][?]

(in reply to sambs0)

Hey sambs0
If you are doing the so called tests on a Sony I suggest you put it into the Relative Section of Our Forum such as the Other Brands Section as this Section is only for Yamaha Problems and News !!!

(in reply to sambs0)

To LaffinAssassin:

I'm not doing tests on the Sony drive itself. Rather, it is a comparison between the two drives.

When initially posting the comparison results I was thinking just in the way you advise. However, this thread was already open. If, nonetheless, you believe there is a better place for the purpose and yet somewhat specify it (as I'm not sure about) I have no problems.

Also, at this time I have nothing to add. And don't hope to get back to it soon. Rather, I'm waiting for test results at some more reliable level than mine. There is no need to spend my time and efforts more than I've done.[:p]

(in reply to sambs0)