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RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/6/2002 6:10:58 PM   
rjw

 

Posts: 932
Joined: 8/18/2001
From: Netherlands
Status: offline
Material used
Hardware used
Plextor 24/10/40A (1.04)
Yamaha CRW-F1(1.0D)
Lite On 48125W (VS08)
CDA3000 (2x)

Additional Software used
WSES
NERO ( for burning)
NERO CD SPEED.

Results(analyzer scores)
Media was burned at rated speed. With the Lite On Except for DDD since the discís didnít have a speed rating befor we burned the discís . After the test we read on the site that it was only 32x media.
For Plextor drive we used 24x and for the Yamaha we had OWSC.

Double Diamond Digital (AOD atip Plasmon)32x
Yamaha CRW-F1 -96
Lite On (burned on 48x) -96
Plextor -97
Average -96.33

Mitsubishi Azo 48x (Singapore)
Yamaha CRW-F1 -93
Lite On -96
Plextor -94
Average -94.33

Plextor (TY) 48x
Yamaha CRW-F1 -95
Lite On -94
Plextor -92
Average -93.66

Enovation Media OPTIMUM BRAND (CMC Magnetics) (A grade) Ė32x
Yamaha CRW-F1(1.0D) - 93
Lite On 48245W (VS08) - 93
Plextor 2410A (1.04) - 94
Average - 93.33

Sunstar (CMC Magnetics) 32x
Yamaha CRW-F1 OWSC - 80
Lite On - 88
Plextor - 88
Average - 85.33

Sony (Sony corp) 32x
Yamaha CRW-F1 OWSC -84
Lite On -81
Plextor -89
Average -84.66

Imation 32x (CMC Magnetics)
Yamaha CRW-F1 - 0
Lite On -87
Plextor -87
Average -58

Enovation Media disc with DST atip code which has been removed from the shelves. ;-)
Burned with the Plextor on 12x - 0
Retries on 8 speed and 24 speed still say 0

Back checking our results.
Using WSES
WSES doesn't seem to count all errors. (C1 and C2) and at this point we are still researching to see what it does count. Now one good thing can be said while it doesn't count all errors the really bad disc's can not slip trough Easily.

Using NERO CD SPEED
We had some very weird results with NERO CD SPEED and different readers. We have seen the DST disc passing NEROís test with (almost) zero errors and a low speed or almost zero errors and 40x. While the discís are bad. NERO CD SPEED uses C2 recognition but it seems that quite a lot of drives are not accurate enough. With other words NERO CD SPEEDís quality test are not that good. The claim zero errors on CD SPEED isnít a very good one.

Second Analyzer and measurements additional times to test about reproduction.
All disc's were measured at least 4 times with the first analyzer from a source which doesnít want to be named.
Some disc's where also checked with a second analyzer(same model) from PC-ACTIVE at the HCC fair.
What we experienced was the following sometimes. Disc's got one point higher of lower now looking through the tables of errors we found out that this was manly based on E31/E11 errors. These results can happen on the same analyzer. Now significant difference was there in results with the second analyzer.

Comparing with the results of the Dutch Magazine PC Consument.
The Dutch Magazine PC Consument tested the following brands the following way.They used a CDA 3000 analyzer and the following 2 drives. Lite On 48125W and a Plextor 40/12/40A. Now they tested 3 batches of 1 disc for each burner.
Now here are there scores for the same disc's as we used. (They tested more disc's and also CD-RW's but these CD-RW's results weren't based on a couple of rewritings. If people want more results from this test then let me know. )
Double Diamond Digital -93,8
Sony -87,2
Imation -79,2
These were exactly the same brands and types as our disc's.
So again Sony and Imation fail and DDD is getting very good results.

CMC Media Agreement.
Now to come back on the thing that caused us the problems of doing the tests.

The Media Dolphinius Rex supplied Enovation Media Optimal Brand (CMC Magnetics) seems to be okay. If it is really cheap media then it would even get a big reccomendation by a lot of sources which I have worked together with.
Still I donít now about aging quality but then again the best thing against aging seems to be Writing Quality of a disc. In other words disc with low errors arenít going as fast down as the others. But ofcourse this summers there will be a second outside tests with the tested discís.

Conclusions not to be made.I am not going to say anything about media support of the tested media for the used burners. Since we only used one disc one each burner . It might happen that one disc is a little bit better then the other 2. So it is not correct to say that the Yamaha can not write Imation disc's or that The Lite On burns Mitsubishi AZO disc's better as the other 2 or Plextor disc's work better on other burners as Plextor own burners.

Our conclusions:
1 Lite On burners can burn on AZO disc's without problems. Looking at the score it indicates that is possible to write a good disc with a Lite On burner. Now we might be lucky but checking the scores from different sources show the same results.
2 CMC can make decent disc's according to above the 90 points test of the CDA3000.
3 Nero CD SPEED claims about zero errors or low errors says nothing about disc quality. Since the software is to much based on how good it can communicate with your reader and to much on the accuracy of the reader.
4 Bad disc's below the 90 points came from: SONY, Imation,Sunstar.
5 ATIP and Brand doesn't have to say anything about factory or quality. Our winner Double Diamond Digital uses Plasmon stampers and these have the ATIP of Plasmon. While in fact these disc's are made by AOD itself at there own factory in Vianen in the Netherlands. Also the results of CMC Media show that quality and factory/ATIP are not the same thing.
6 Buying from the factory itself does seem to give a better quality/price ratting. 2 of the good disc's came directly from the factory and are cheap compared to the other media.
7 For people in Holland you can order DDD disc's at www.doublediamonddigital.com

Now the big question is how to I post pictures.Since you want to see some of the printouts coming from the analyzer.
With the info about Bler/C1/C2 errors which where measured and the mapping of the BLER on the discís

(in reply to rjw)
Post #: 33
RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/6/2002 8:51:02 PM   
Dolphinius_Rex


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Joined: 9/14/2002
From: Vancouver, B.C. Canada
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rjw: Thank you for all your hard work and effort in this matter! There are some important points made in this testing, that I am very glad you brought to light!

1. I'm glad to see the Optimum CMC CD-Rs turning out to be as good as I have been saying, I won't say I didn't have my doubts though!

2. I'm concerned about the quality of Nero CD Speed, especially having compared it to CD doctor! bad discs ARE sneaking through un-noticed, and this particularily worries me because this site uses it in the reviews.... perhaps the newer verion that we don't have access to yet is better?

regarding the Disc with the DST ATIP code, I'm not surprised, but I am very ashamed that we actually carried those! [:I]

thank you to everyone who was patient with me! I never meant to offend anyone, or "push" low quality CDs on people. I hope you are satisfied with these results.


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(in reply to rjw)
Post #: 34
RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/7/2002 1:49:23 AM   
MP3Mogul


Posts: 5743
Joined: 4/11/2002
From: Retired Moderator
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You guys buy all the CMC discs up! Then the rest of us won't have to worry about them! LOL!!!. Thanks for the test results.. I'll stick to TY myself, it's tested, tried and proven. But it was a great project.... Thanks for an outstanding effort.


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(in reply to rjw)
Post #: 35
RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/7/2002 10:32:52 PM   
Dolphinius_Rex


Posts: 3310
Joined: 9/14/2002
From: Vancouver, B.C. Canada
Status: offline
I just want to make sure I understand this right:
The CDA3000 tests the CD-Rs at 2x right? Is that the standerd for CD testing?

The reason I ask is I have been using CD Doctor (quite A lot lately) and I have been comparing the results from the highspeed and lowspeed tests, and there appear to be quite a few differences! In the first test I did they were very simaler, no C2 errors in either test, a few less c1 errors on the slowspeed. But now I'm running into some larger differences! like c2 errors appearing in the highspeed, but not the lowspeed. I'd like to post the pictures somewhere, but I don't know how to


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Post #: 36
RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/9/2002 1:06:00 AM   
john

 

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Joined: 12/24/2000
From: Greece
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Rex the CDA3000 series can read up to 40X speed, and report errors, but i don't know how RJW made the tests.

The differences with the C1/C2 report in various speeds is real and not only within speeds but also within drives.

We are looking this issue and soon we will post findings


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Post #: 37
RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/9/2002 12:55:37 PM   
rjw

 

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Joined: 8/18/2001
From: Netherlands
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The speed used was 40x. If a disc failed on 40x.
Additional tests would be done at 24x.
If 24x fails then tests will be done at 8x.
If a disc failed at 8x we stopped testing, which was the case with the unknown media with the DST atip code. We used 2 analyzers for this one. And both couldn't read it fine on 8x. Which makes this the worst disc tested. Imation was a good second one but was readable at 8x.
Now with lower speeds the error correction seems to improve.
2 explanations for this.
1 It might be the case that the problem is because of the shape of a disc. Badly shaped disc's will have more errors when trying to be read this is because the up and and down moving because of the bad shape.
Now with card shaped cd-r media can most times not be read on 40x. But good card media scores very good on 24x (95 and higher).
2 It seems that a drive has less problems with errors at a lower speed. For instance check plextools. For the ultamite ripping quality of bad disc's the speed will go down to below 1x which might result in a correct read of the byte which had problems at higher speeds.
I had a very bad disc and in the end plextools could copy it after more then 3 hours. (99 retries on byte level with lower speed setting) Which indicated this software was quite good. (Still my discman can read it fine in one pass.)

Lower speeds seems to be better for reading.

Any good disc these days should score 90 points or higher on 40x that is except for card shaped media for that it should be 95 points or higher on 24x.


(in reply to rjw)
Post #: 38
RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/9/2002 7:06:27 PM   
john

 

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Joined: 12/24/2000
From: Greece
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Just to add something, proffesional testing equipement measure errors in either 1X or 2X speed (when not using commercial drives). When we asked, why not at 40X (or higher), the answer was that when reading above a certain speed, you don't measure the disc errors but also the reader error correction/optics design [:I]

So with AudioDev or a CD Accosiates PRO test equipement, you will read at 1X/2X (CD Accociates sold a drive that could do 8X and they advertised it BIG time), and for checking a disc they use CDSpeed to perform an speed graph (probably with a commercial drive).


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Post #: 39
RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/9/2002 8:57:04 PM   
rjw

 

Posts: 932
Joined: 8/18/2001
From: Netherlands
Status: offline
Hey John 2 things.

1 I was wondering then why do the so called profesional magazines allways use 40x.If a disc fails then a disc is bad. Trust me allmost allmost all "European" Magazines use this test methode. (So I used the same thing) According to them a disc should be good when it's above 90 points on 40x some have said 85 points is enough but that is really the lowest.

2 Normally you want the same test conditions as the real thing when meassureing. (At least in the chemistry world that is except for Optimalisation.) So most normal users will try to read at 40x and above. So how does this stand.

3 The difference in retries was very low. (15 times the same disc will result in allmost the same thing each time.)Only 1 time we ended in a different score of 1 point. Each disc was at least meassured 3 times and the differences are small. So are these additional errors allmost allways the same or are that low that there irrelevant.[?]

So if you are right then what we have seen in the all the so called tests in the last 3 years say nothing [?]
I doubt this check again all the brands that were said to be bad turned out to be quite problematic for most users.

(in reply to rjw)
Post #: 40
RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/10/2002 1:43:31 AM   
john

 

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Joined: 12/24/2000
From: Greece
Status: offline
1) What we are saying doesn't come from our heads but from what the industry believes is the correct... [:I]

2) They are very correct when saying that we cannot trust, in absolute 100%, a commercial drive. Even you test the same disc in two same drives, you will have differences. That's why the PRO testing equipment costs from $30.000-$60.000 and not $4-$5.000 that the CDA3000 does. Such testing equipment has carefully selected components to minimize the errors added by circuits, power supply and of course the optics. The SA3 series from AudioDev are considered as the industry defacto, that's why the cost $50.000 each (separate drive for CD-R and separate drive for CD-RW).

3) What all European magazines done in the last few years, was to "buy" the low end testing equipment (such as the CDA3000) and make some quick testing. Now i you are asking my opinion is that is correct, i cannot say i absolutely agree (they could offer something more to offer more accurate results), but it was their choice to do so...we have to live with it.

Of course I have to agree that the PRO testing equipment is aimed for the factories, while the low end for the average consumer. I will agree that the WSES (and similar) software will show users the condition of a written disc so I am not so sure what is the need for testing equipment such the CDA3000 series (Forgot to mention it doesn't measure Jitter ).

Again this doesn't meant to reduce your (and our attempts) to find out the writing quality of CD-R media but meant to show what the industry believes for, since we talk with them a lot.


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Post #: 41
RE: CMC Media agreement - 12/15/2002 11:47:12 AM   
Freddy Valkyrie

 

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Joined: 12/15/2002
From: USA
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This is my first post here, bare with me. I am completely ignorant to a lot of issues regarding cdr media. As proof, I have about 200 CMC (140 or so burned). I have had really cruddy cdr media in the past that was probably from CMC since the top of the cdr peeled off of about 15 of my cdrs (some were fuji). Right now though, I'm asking SPECIFICALLY about TDK 24x and these Imation cdrs I got last night [didn't see labeled speed, silver top (not just bare, but coated)]. CDR Identifier confirms them as CMC.

TDK 24x
ATIP: 97m 26s 66f
Disc Manufacturer: CMC Magnetics Corp.
Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine)
Media type: CD-Recordable
Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown
nominal Capacity: 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f / LBA: 359849)

Imation
ATIP: 97m 26s 66f
Disc Manufacturer: CMC Magnetics Corp.
Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine)
Media type: CD-Recordable
Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown
nominal Capacity: 702.82MB (79m 59s 71f / LBA: 359846)

I know I didn't give enough info on the imation discs but the only other info i got from the label was their manufacture date, 2002. Here's the good news, I'll be the poster boy for low quality CMC cdrs on how long they last. :-(

(in reply to rjw)
Post #: 42
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