CDRInfo Forum CDRInfo Forum

Forums  Register  Login  My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums 

Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ  Ticket List  Log Out

RE: Buying a Plextor   Logged in as: Guest
Viewers: 748 You can click here to see Today's Posts | Most Active Topics | Posts Since Last Visit
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Optical Storage] >> CD, DVD, BD Drives >> RE: Buying a Plextor Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/27/2002 2:41:12 PM   
Laffin Assassin


Posts: 4648
Status: offline
Hi Clint
One we can add to the list of SD2 defeaters is the TDK Cyclone 401248B it is a Lite-on based one as you know but with a well made high quality case. I have had it for about 3 weeks and only just got round to installing it in a spare computer. I have just done a Perfect Back-up of Medal of Honour and it works in any CD. Pretty cool eh! Anybody want to buy a Yamaha 3200e (Only kidding)
Laffin Assassin

It's Nice to be Importent But is more importent to be NICE!!!

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 97
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/28/2002 6:37:56 AM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Hi Clint
One we can add to the list of SD2 defeaters is the TDK Cyclone 401248B it is a Lite-on based one as you know but with a well made high quality case. I have had it for about 3 weeks and only just got round to installing it in a spare computer. I have just done a Perfect Back-up of Medal of Honour and it works in any CD. Pretty cool eh! Anybody want to buy a Yamaha 3200e (Only kidding)
Laffin Assassin

It's Nice to be Importent But is more importent to be NICE!!!



Yeah I know. Its a cool drive with the case and all. I like it alot!

But not as good as my Lite-On 40X, know why? Well mine writes in P-CAV!!!!

_________________
You get what you pay for...

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 98
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/28/2002 6:41:46 AM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
But there is a way to make the TDK CyClone 401248 a 40X P-CAV recoreder aswell if you know how to

_________________
You get what you pay for...

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 99
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/28/2002 7:13:43 AM   
Laffin Assassin


Posts: 4648
Status: offline
Hi Clint
I am 75% sure how to and I am sure I can find the other 25% mate but if I get stuck I am sure a nice guy like you would e-mail the 100% solution.

It's Nice to be Important!!!
But it's more Important to be NICE!!!

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 100
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/28/2002 12:40:29 PM   
burner1000000

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
Clint,

I am happy to report that the answer to your earlier post on this thread has now changed. With the new CCD4.0.1.3, the plex 24x and 40x burners are able to copy SD2.51.020 and above games in a "perfect" manner. (Yes, AWS is necessary).

It seems that the problem was CCD4, not the plex. When Olli modifed the code for the last version, it now works.

It does give a lot of credence to clawso1's replies from plextor. Perhaps CCD has been using some "shortcuts".

In any event, the plex now makes copies that work in at least one Tosh reader.

Also, did I read you right earlier, when you said the Lite-on makes 1:1 copies?


(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 101
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/28/2002 8:22:54 PM   
clawso1

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

Clint,

It seems that the problem was CCD4, not the plex. When Olli modifed the code for the last version, it now works.

It does give a lot of credence to clawso1's replies from plextor. Perhaps CCD has been using some "shortcuts".





So both of the latest Plextor's drives will copy SD2.51.020 and above games, without CHOKING? Well, that's GREAT news, to say the least!

Regards
Cal

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 102
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/29/2002 3:00:41 AM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

Clint,

It seems that the problem was CCD4, not the plex. When Olli modifed the code for the last version, it now works.

It does give a lot of credence to clawso1's replies from plextor. Perhaps CCD has been using some "shortcuts".





So both of the latest Plextor's drives will copy SD2.51.020 and above games, without CHOKING? Well, that's GREAT news, to say the least!

Regards
Cal



No they won't perfect, cause they still need AWS. Anyhow SD v2.51.021 is the killer not .020



_________________
You get what you pay for...

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 103
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/29/2002 3:04:34 AM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Hi Clint
I am 75% sure how to and I am sure I can find the other 25% mate but if I get stuck I am sure a nice guy like you would e-mail the 100% solution.

It's Nice to be Important!!!
But it's more Important to be NICE!!!



Yeah if you need a hand just give us a yell

_________________
You get what you pay for...

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 104
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/29/2002 3:20:55 AM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Clint,

I am happy to report that the answer to your earlier post on this thread has now changed. With the new CCD4.0.1.3, the plex 24x and 40x burners are able to copy SD2.51.020 and above games in a "perfect" manner. (Yes, AWS is necessary).

It seems that the problem was CCD4, not the plex. When Olli modifed the code for the last version, it now works.

It does give a lot of credence to clawso1's replies from plextor. Perhaps CCD has been using some "shortcuts".

In any event, the plex now makes copies that work in at least one Tosh reader.

Also, did I read you right earlier, when you said the Lite-on makes 1:1 copies?





I always thought the Plextor's could cut v2.51.020 even without AWS...
It was v2.51.021 that it couldn't. I regard a "perfect" copy is one that does NOT require "software compromises" (ie. AWS). So are you saying that your Plex's before CCD v4.0.1.3 couldn't do v2.51.020 with or without AWS (that did play in a Tosh?).

Yes you read correct. For most part the entire Lite-On series of writers do cut SD2 up 'till v2.60 (the ones based on Sanyo chipsets do not). *All* the Lite-On's from the LTR-24102B to their latest do it. They require *NO* AWS, and play in the Toshiba's.
So they are considered "known SD2.51+ killers".
With 1:1 copies, I do NOT believe CloneCD produces these in practice (at least for SD2 anyway...), only in theory. The copies work with the right hardware, but the CRC errors that are written are hexidecimal values not the actual 'bad sector'.

_________________
You get what you pay for...

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 105
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/29/2002 3:50:07 PM   
burner1000000

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:


I always thought the Plextor's could cut v2.51.020 even without AWS...
It was v2.51.021 that it couldn't. I regard a "perfect" copy is one that does NOT require "software compromises" (ie. AWS). So are you saying that your Plex's before CCD v4.0.1.3 couldn't do v2.51.020 with or without AWS (that did play in a Tosh?).

Yes you read correct. For most part the entire Lite-On series of writers do cut SD2 up 'till v2.60 (the ones based on Sanyo chipsets do not). *All* the Lite-On's from the LTR-24102B to their latest do it. They require *NO* AWS, and play in the Toshiba's.
So they are considered "known SD2.51+ killers".
With 1:1 copies, I do NOT believe CloneCD produces these in practice (at least for SD2 anyway...), only in theory. The copies work with the right hardware, but the CRC errors that are written are hexidecimal values not the actual 'bad sector'.

_________________
You get what you pay for...



As you know, it is hard to get tons of good info when you start talking about what a burner will or will not do on the internet.

Although, I have heard rumors and have seen posters who claim that the plex will do SD2.51.020, when you get additional info, many times the burner is using a very forgiving reader, such as a Lite-on LTD-163 to check. So the result is a "near perfect" copy using AWS.

I have heard claims that the plex 40x/24x will do SD2.51.020 without AWS, but have never actually talked to anyone who has done it.

Surprisingly, my plexs (2 24x and 2 40x) all can do SD2.51.021 (MOHAA) without any problem, but AWS has to be enabled. Before the latest CCD4, they could do MOHAA, but not TW2002. Why, I don't know. I think it was a bug in CCD4. FutureProof disagrees with me. The only other change that could have had any effect was that I upgraded fw to 1.02. I, personally, think that the fw upgrade was very minor.

I guess the bottom line, so to speak, is the the plex, as far as I can tell, can now copy most SD2.51xxx and above games well enough to be a passable working copy, but only with AWS. Others may have had different experiences.

That's a good way to put the 1:1 copying relationship with the Lite-on and CCD. I know that it works, but it's not what I consider a true 1:1 as data is changed in the copying. It functions because unreadable data is unreadable data, but I keep hearing people making the mistake (IMHO) that the Lite-on makes true 1:1 copies. There is no question that the mediatek chip is the best for SD2 and I'm not knocking it. I was just trying to make sure that CCD4 hadn't changed the process in some way to overcome the need to exchange bit data for hex data.

Thanks for the reply.






(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 106
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/29/2002 4:14:54 PM   
clawso1

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
Hey Clint, I think this statement below, from Oliver Kastl - Creator of CloneCD, himself bears repeating.

"As you know, there is a new copy protection, which can not always be copied with CloneCD. For example, you can find it on the CD "Command & Conquer - Red Alert2" and on some others as well. Let's call this protection SD2.

SD2 is a very interesting beast, as some of you already know. Sometimes a copy works only in the CD-Writer, sometimes not at all. Sometimes - depending on the writer used - in any CD-ROM.

Some people claim, that they had success with other burning software.

Let me explain, what the reason for all this might be. (I say "might be", as the information here is just revealed through observation, but I believe I am at least pretty close)

The first funny thing is, that if a SD2 copy doesn't play in a CD-ROM, this copy has additional bad sectors, which weren't on the original. As CloneCD reads and writes "as is!", I would have assumed, this is simply impossible.
So, if you are a curious guy, you can look at these sectors on the original CD (where they are readable).
You will find a lot of garbage on the first view. But if you run these sectors through a sector scrambler (a device, which is in every CD-ROM and CD-WRITER) you see the reason for all the trouble: Regular patterns like 'XYXYXYXYXY...' and so forth. And this is exactly how the protection works. To understand this, you need to know, what the scrambler is used for (from ECMA-130, ISO/IEC 10149):

"A regular bit pattern fed into the EFM encoder can cause large values of the digital sum value in case the merging bits cannot reduce this value. The scrambler reduces this risk by converting the bits in byte 12 to 2351 of a Sector in a prediscribed way. ..."

The sectors I have mentioned above try in fact to overload the EFM encoder of the CD-Writer, because *AFTER* passing the scrambler the poor device has to write *REGULAR BIT PATTERNS* - something it really doesn't like.

After some quick tests, it seems, that some writers are affected by this problem more than others. For example, writers based on Philips hardware (Philips, Fujitsu/Siemens, Acer, just to name a few) are NOT affected by this at all. With such a writer, you can copy SD2 with any CloneCD version, and the copy will run on every CD-ROM.

Most other writers will not write these sectors correctly. Some writers (Plextor) can at least read the copy they've made, so the copy will run in the writer, but not in an ordinary CD-ROM. The reason for this might be, that the writer is able to position better, but this is just guess.

I must admit, this is a very, very cool protection: Something is on the original which can be read, and not be written. I really didn't believe such a protection is possible. Now for the interesting question: Will CloneCD ever be able to overcome this problem?

Well, you can answer this yourself: I guess not. Okay, you can probably do nasty tricks like modifying the pattern. But this isn't what CloneCD is about. It is called CloneCD, not PatchCD. In opposite to the belief of some people, CloneCD does not cheat or modify data in any way. I like to keep it this way.

Will any other software overcome this problem? Again, you can answer this yourself: No, unless they are cheating somehow. Can a firmware update fix this? Maybe. But I have the strange feeling, that the problem resides in the writer's chipset, not its firmware. Maybe a firmware workaround would be possible. But who would be so nice to modify the firmware in this regard?

Conclusion: Either use your Plextor writer to play the copy, or buy a unit based on Philips hardware. Sorry for the bad news."

Oliver Kastl - Creator of CloneCD


Regards
Cal

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 107
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/29/2002 4:43:58 PM   
Laffin Assassin


Posts: 4648
Status: offline
Hi clawso1
The message from Olli you have posted was posted about Febuary but this one was posted much later on Clone Clinic by Olli and as we all know Olli is a Dark Horse but we all love him so much that most of us Purchess his product.

This is what Ollie has suppossed to post when asked about:-
"Tages, Starforce, CD-Cops & Co.:
Yes, I *think* I know how they work.
Yes, I *believe* they can be copied.
Yes, I *know* the next CloneCD version *will not* do it.
Yes, I *believe* it can be done.
Yes, I *hope* I will copy them.
Yes, I *hope* I can copy *any* protection with *every* burner (SD2 capable or not) someday. I am working on a completely new, top-secret, super-cool engine, which will work radically different then anything you have seen before. But it is not working yet, and it is not prooved that it'll ever work.
No, I am *not* going to announce it before I *know* that it'll work. And I am *not* telling you, how it is *supposed* to work either, sorry."

Now how true this is only Olli himself Knows but it did have his e-mail at the bottom of the post and I know he posts on there quite often.

Laffin Assassin

It's Nice to be Important!!!
But it's more Important to be NICE!!!

Edited by - Laffin Assassin on 05/29/2002 16:46:00

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 108
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/29/2002 7:09:00 PM   
clawso1

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
Hmmm...Laffin Assassin, that's very INTERESTING, if indeed it was posted by Olli! I guess we'll have to wait and see what Olli's SILVER BULLET is, huh?

Regards
Cal

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 109
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/30/2002 12:03:10 AM   
burner1000000

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
Well clawso1,

That post is still quite informative although it was originally written "quite a while" back now, in computer years, anyway. I have read it several times and I still find new "gems" each time I read it.

It is obvious that CCD4 retains some of the limitations that he talked about in that post, while he has certainly devised some effective workarounds.

However, my ultimate point was to make sure that the way that CCD4 works is not different from before. In other words, CCD4 still changes the program code to make a copy. This, of course, would make it an illegal device in just about every country in the world. It is little wonder that he moved his headquarters to Switzerland! Olli knows that Germany has signed on with the WIPO! More later when I post about copyright laws.



(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 110
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/30/2002 1:54:52 AM   
clawso1

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
Interesting point burner1000000, and well taken! We'll stay tuned and SEE what develops. Man I never thought I'd see a THREAD read and posted to this many times on any forum! But as you said burner1000000, there are "Gems" throughout!!!

Regards
Cal

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 111
RE: Buying a Plextor - 5/30/2002 4:54:20 AM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Hey Clint, I think this statement below, from Oliver Kastl - Creator of CloneCD, himself bears repeating.

"As you know, there is a new copy protection, which can not always be copied with CloneCD. For example, you can find it on the CD "Command & Conquer - Red Alert2" and on some others as well. Let's call this protection SD2.

SD2 is a very interesting beast, as some of you already know. Sometimes a copy works only in the CD-Writer, sometimes not at all. Sometimes - depending on the writer used - in any CD-ROM.

Some people claim, that they had success with other burning software.

Let me explain, what the reason for all this might be. (I say "might be", as the information here is just revealed through observation, but I believe I am at least pretty close)

The first funny thing is, that if a SD2 copy doesn't play in a CD-ROM, this copy has additional bad sectors, which weren't on the original. As CloneCD reads and writes "as is!", I would have assumed, this is simply impossible.
So, if you are a curious guy, you can look at these sectors on the original CD (where they are readable).
You will find a lot of garbage on the first view. But if you run these sectors through a sector scrambler (a device, which is in every CD-ROM and CD-WRITER) you see the reason for all the trouble: Regular patterns like 'XYXYXYXYXY...' and so forth. And this is exactly how the protection works. To understand this, you need to know, what the scrambler is used for (from ECMA-130, ISO/IEC 10149):

"A regular bit pattern fed into the EFM encoder can cause large values of the digital sum value in case the merging bits cannot reduce this value. The scrambler reduces this risk by converting the bits in byte 12 to 2351 of a Sector in a prediscribed way. ..."

The sectors I have mentioned above try in fact to overload the EFM encoder of the CD-Writer, because *AFTER* passing the scrambler the poor device has to write *REGULAR BIT PATTERNS* - something it really doesn't like.

After some quick tests, it seems, that some writers are affected by this problem more than others. For example, writers based on Philips hardware (Philips, Fujitsu/Siemens, Acer, just to name a few) are NOT affected by this at all. With such a writer, you can copy SD2 with any CloneCD version, and the copy will run on every CD-ROM.

Most other writers will not write these sectors correctly. Some writers (Plextor) can at least read the copy they've made, so the copy will run in the writer, but not in an ordinary CD-ROM. The reason for this might be, that the writer is able to position better, but this is just guess.

I must admit, this is a very, very cool protection: Something is on the original which can be read, and not be written. I really didn't believe such a protection is possible. Now for the interesting question: Will CloneCD ever be able to overcome this problem?

Well, you can answer this yourself: I guess not. Okay, you can probably do nasty tricks like modifying the pattern. But this isn't what CloneCD is about. It is called CloneCD, not PatchCD. In opposite to the belief of some people, CloneCD does not cheat or modify data in any way. I like to keep it this way.

Will any other software overcome this problem? Again, you can answer this yourself: No, unless they are cheating somehow. Can a firmware update fix this? Maybe. But I have the strange feeling, that the problem resides in the writer's chipset, not its firmware. Maybe a firmware workaround would be possible. But who would be so nice to modify the firmware in this regard?

Conclusion: Either use your Plextor writer to play the copy, or buy a unit based on Philips hardware. Sorry for the bad news."

Oliver Kastl - Creator of CloneCD


Regards
Cal



Cal, look on page 1 of this thread, I already posted the link for this article

_________________
You get what you pay for...

Edited by - Clint on 05/30/2002 04:58:35

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 112
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Optical Storage] >> CD, DVD, BD Drives >> RE: Buying a Plextor Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.046