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Buying a Plextor - 4/23/2002 5:37:56 PM   
Javeryt

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 4/23/2002
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Status: offline
Hi, I'm getting ready to upgrade my current CD-RW drive. I've been looking at Plextor since I've read that they have really good products and tech support. Basically I'm debating whether to get the 24X model or the brand new 40X model, there is less than $20 difference between the price, so I just need to know which one to get. I've read good things about both, but on this site you guys really seem to favor the 24X. I like to brag to my friends that I have the newest and the best though, so that is why I'm having such a hard time! My machine is older, 350 PII, 128 megs of RAM, still runs great though. Any advice?
Post #: 1
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/23/2002 7:29:25 PM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
Hi,
I owned the Plextor 24X and it was a fantastic burner. I then sold it 'partly' because it couldn't perfectly reproduce new SafeDisc 2 v2.51.021 games as found on Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault and others. Also I wanted to have an even faster CD-RW. So I waited for the Plextor 40X. *But*, then I found out that this drive ALSO (like the 24X) could not do correct EFM encoding, needed for SD2.51.021. So I did not buy it. I'm waiting for the Plextor PX-W4812A 48X CD-RW, hopefully it will support correct EFM encoding...

My advise to you, is get the Plex 40X if you don't need it for SD2 newer versions. Both can make working copies using CCD4's AWS function though. And versions of SD2 before v2.51, they both can make perfect copies.

If this doesn't concern you, the Plex 40X is THE one to get. It is top of the line, superb quality, and very fast. It supports reading of copy protected music CDs also, which is going to be a very important feature (and is now).

Good luck

Check out the review of the Plex 40X here: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=PleXWriter+PX%2DW4012A+CD%2DRW&Series=0

This should help make the decision easier

_________________
You get what you pay for...

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 2
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/23/2002 11:09:31 PM   
Javeryt

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 4/23/2002
From:
Status: offline
Wow thanks for a great and very thourogh response.
P.S. Could you explain some of the more technical terminology? I mean I know I don't use a burner to do that, but what specifically does it mean? Thanx!


(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 3
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/24/2002 7:20:16 AM   
AoE999

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 1/10/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline
Clint,

all the Plextor, from SCSI Plextor to a 24X IDE
i have no problem with it comes to safe disc 2, i use Clone CD
it rocks, if you use Nero or Blindread/write, then you have problem

good luck


quote:

Hi,
I owned the Plextor 24X and it was a fantastic burner. I then sold it 'partly' because it couldn't perfectly reproduce new SafeDisc 2 v2.51.021 games as found on Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault and others. Also I wanted to have an even faster CD-RW. So I waited for the Plextor 40X. *But*, then I found out that this drive ALSO (like the 24X) could not do correct EFM encoding, needed for SD2.51.021. So I did not buy it. I'm waiting for the Plextor PX-W4812A 48X CD-RW, hopefully it will support correct EFM encoding...

My advise to you, is get the Plex 40X if you don't need it for SD2 newer versions. Both can make working copies using CCD4's AWS function though. And versions of SD2 before v2.51, they both can make perfect copies.

If this doesn't concern you, the Plex 40X is THE one to get. It is top of the line, superb quality, and very fast. It supports reading of copy protected music CDs also, which is going to be a very important feature (and is now).

Good luck

Check out the review of the Plex 40X here: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=PleXWriter+PX%2DW4012A+CD%2DRW&Series=0

This should help make the decision easier

_________________
You get what you pay for...


(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 4
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/24/2002 7:32:05 AM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Wow thanks for a great and very thourogh response.
P.S. Could you explain some of the more technical terminology? I mean I know I don't use a burner to do that, but what specifically does it mean? Thanx!





Thats ok

Which bit/s would you like an explanation for

The only way this "technical terminology" wouldn't concern you is if you didn't copy new games...

If you copy the newest games out on the market, it's pretty important to know the copy protection it uses, so you can DEFEAT it!

If you mean "SD2" and "EFM encoding", and you want to know more about this check out these articles:

http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/news/0102/sd2_truth.shtml
and importantly, http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/news/0101/safedisc2.shtml

also, if you want to know what exactly an EFM Encoder on a CD-RW is read below;
>EFM
Eight to Fourteen Modulation is used during encoding, because the 8-bit 'magnetic' byte has to be modulated to a 14-bit 'optical' byte. Technically, this modulation is necessary to allow encoding of two consecutive 1s--which would be impossible with the scheme of pits and lands using 8-bit bytes (1s and 0s). In fact, the changes in reflectivity (as the laser light moves along the sequence of pits and lands) are coded as 1 channel bits. Two consecutive 1s are therefore not possible. Moreover, the 'lands' in between the 1s are represented by 0 channel bits, and the number of 0s represent the run-length. The bits in an optical byte are known as 'channel bits' to avoid confusion, and because they are transferred to the controller board through a specific channel. Furthermore, the fourteen-bit optical byte is provided three additional channel bits, known as merging bits--to eliminate transition conflicts between consecutive optical bytes. During the read process, the interface card demodulates the 14- bit optical code to the 8-bit code used by the computer--and all channel bit-level modulation and processing remain transparent to the user.<


*** If you DO NOT backup PC games, this post is pretty much 'IRRELEVANT' to you....

Have fun reading!



_________________
You get what you pay for...

Edited by - Clint on 04/24/2002 07:39:48

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 5
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/24/2002 7:43:50 AM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Clint,

all the Plextor, from SCSI Plextor to a 24X IDE
i have no problem with it comes to safe disc 2, i use Clone CD
it rocks, if you use Nero or Blindread/write, then you have problem

good luck


quote:

Hi,
I owned the Plextor 24X and it was a fantastic burner. I then sold it 'partly' because it couldn't perfectly reproduce new SafeDisc 2 v2.51.021 games as found on Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault and others. Also I wanted to have an even faster CD-RW. So I waited for the Plextor 40X. *But*, then I found out that this drive ALSO (like the 24X) could not do correct EFM encoding, needed for SD2.51.021. So I did not buy it. I'm waiting for the Plextor PX-W4812A 48X CD-RW, hopefully it will support correct EFM encoding...

My advise to you, is get the Plex 40X if you don't need it for SD2 newer versions. Both can make working copies using CCD4's AWS function though. And versions of SD2 before v2.51, they both can make perfect copies.

If this doesn't concern you, the Plex 40X is THE one to get. It is top of the line, superb quality, and very fast. It supports reading of copy protected music CDs also, which is going to be a very important feature (and is now).

Good luck

Check out the review of the Plex 40X here: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=PleXWriter+PX%2DW4012A+CD%2DRW&Series=0

This should help make the decision easier

_________________
You get what you pay for...





If you had of read my post accurately, you would have seen the part where I said that the Plextor's do NOT have any problems with SD2 before the newest version (v2.51.021). Even your PleXWriters will NOT be able to copy SD2.51.XXX. It is a hardware limitation of the chipset.

Did you read this part -


>"My advise to you, is get the Plex 40X if you don't need it for SD2 newer versions. Both can make working copies using CCD4's AWS function though. And versions of SD2 before v2.51, they both can make perfect copies."<



_________________
You get what you pay for...

Edited by - Clint on 04/24/2002 07:51:52

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 6
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/25/2002 5:33:10 AM   
Jenius

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Singapore
Status: offline
Ya can't even burn FIFA World Cup 2002 wif my Plex 24x :(

Waiting for the 48x now..
btw those showing 2 dots in CloneCD's supported writer page for correct EFM encoding shld do SD2.51 juz fine. (I think)


(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 7
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/25/2002 6:06:00 PM   
clawso1

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
Hey Clint, guess what?! I just received this email from Plextor Support:

That is not correct. Plextor doesn't support CloneCD, that's all.

Plextor Support Team - Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence A Lawson Sr [mailto:clawso1@paxemail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:19 PM
To: Plextor Support
Subject: EFM encoding


Non of the current Plextor drives support "Correct EFM encoding," so I would like to know if the future drives will?!



Clarence A. Lawson, Sr.






quote:

Hi,
I owned the Plextor 24X and it was a fantastic burner. I then sold it 'partly' because it couldn't perfectly reproduce new SafeDisc 2 v2.51.021 games as found on Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault and others. Also I wanted to have an even faster CD-RW. So I waited for the Plextor 40X. *But*, then I found out that this drive ALSO (like the 24X) could not do correct EFM encoding, needed for SD2.51.021. So I did not buy it. I'm waiting for the Plextor PX-W4812A 48X CD-RW, hopefully it will support correct EFM encoding...

My advise to you, is get the Plex 40X if you don't need it for SD2 newer versions. Both can make working copies using CCD4's AWS function though. And versions of SD2 before v2.51, they both can make perfect copies.

If this doesn't concern you, the Plex 40X is THE one to get. It is top of the line, superb quality, and very fast. It supports reading of copy protected music CDs also, which is going to be a very important feature (and is now).

Good luck

Check out the review of the Plex 40X here: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=PleXWriter+PX%2DW4012A+CD%2DRW&Series=0

This should help make the decision easier

_________________
You get what you pay for...



Regards
Cal

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 8
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/25/2002 6:54:09 PM   
clawso1

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
Clint, have you ever checked out these web sites? http://www.blindwrite.com/download.htm
http://www.blindwrite.com/faq.htm

Regards
Cal

Edited by - clawso1 on 04/25/2002 20:04:04

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 9
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/25/2002 8:11:41 PM   
clawso1

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
Clint here is another reply from Plextor Support about SD2 EFM encoding.

----- Original Message -----
From: Plextor Support Team
To: Clarence A Lawson Sr
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 07:47 PM
Subject: RE: EFM encoding


All PlexWriters can read and write RAW, and Subchannel data just fine. Some software does not correctly follow the MMC standards for doing so. In particular CloneCD has problems with some of the PlexWriter CDRW drives.

I invite you to read the FAQ at http://www.blindwrite.com/faq.htm In particular read the part describing the problem with SafeDisc 1 and SafeDisc 2, perhaps this will give you a better idea of the issues.

Plextor Support Team - Paul



Regards
Cal

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 10
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/25/2002 10:16:18 PM   
john

 

Posts: 4038
Joined: 12/24/2000
From: Greece
Status: offline
Heh. Don't expect from any company support team to comment how to copy protected CDs. This is a forbitten word for most companies ,due to legal problems, epsecially in USA.

Latest CloneCD v4.x with Amplify Weak Sector can do SD2 with all recorders.

Visit www.cdrinfo.com - The Recording Authority

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 11
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/25/2002 10:57:50 PM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Ya can't even burn FIFA World Cup 2002 wif my Plex 24x :(

Waiting for the 48x now..
btw those showing 2 dots in CloneCD's supported writer page for correct EFM encoding shld do SD2.51 juz fine. (I think)





Well I can make a perfect copy of FIFA Football 2002 with my PX-W2410A. It plays in all CD/DVD-ROMs. Not sure if this is the same game as what you state It contains SD2 v2.40.010; probably the last SD2 revision the Plex 24X could backup without AWS or similar.
Yes you are correct, those recorders with 2 'sheep heads' in the EFM column do SD2.51 perfect. Most of the CD-RW's with 2 sheep are Lite-On's or rebadges.

The Plextor's at best only have one sheep in the EFM column, which means they can write regular bit patterns *almost* correctly, which explains why they struggle with SD2.51.XXX

And clawso1,

Do read carefully what john said in his reply, it pretty much explains why you got what you got from Plextor tech support



_________________
You get what you pay for...

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 12
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/25/2002 11:05:47 PM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Clint here is another reply from Plextor Support about SD2 EFM encoding.

----- Original Message -----
From: Plextor Support Team
To: Clarence A Lawson Sr
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 07:47 PM
Subject: RE: EFM encoding


All PlexWriters can read and write RAW, and Subchannel data just fine. Some software does not correctly follow the MMC standards for doing so. In particular CloneCD has problems with some of the PlexWriter CDRW drives.

I invite you to read the FAQ at http://www.blindwrite.com/faq.htm In particular read the part describing the problem with SafeDisc 1 and SafeDisc 2, perhaps this will give you a better idea of the issues.

Plextor Support Team - Paul



Regards
Cal



I wasn't talking about the ability to write and read in RAW mode or the ability to read the subchannel data of a CD. I know Plextor's do those two things, and well. EFM encoding has little or nothing to do with Subs and RAW writing. And yes I have read Blind Suite's FAQ. It has nothing to do with why Plextor recorders cannot write *correct*regular bit patterns.

_________________
You get what you pay for...

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 13
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/25/2002 11:13:58 PM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Hey Clint, guess what?! I just received this email from Plextor Support:

That is not correct. Plextor doesn't support CloneCD, that's all.

Plextor Support Team - Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence A Lawson Sr [mailto:clawso1@paxemail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:19 PM
To: Plextor Support
Subject: EFM encoding


Non of the current Plextor drives support "Correct EFM encoding," so I would like to know if the future drives will?!



Clarence A. Lawson, Sr.





Regards
Cal



Plextor's 24X and 40X = "Drive writes regular bit patterns almost correctly". Taken from CloneCD help, under supported writers.


_________________
You get what you pay for...

Edited by - Clint on 04/25/2002 23:36:55

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 14
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/26/2002 12:25:14 AM   
clawso1

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: USA
Status: offline
Well, then you're saying that the Plextor's Support team don't know what they're talking about concerning EFM encoding, right? Also, you said,

"EFM encoding has little or nothing to do with Subs and RAW writing. And yes I have read Blind Suite's FAQ. It has nothing to do with why Plextor recorders cannot write *correct*regular bit patterns."

Well, Clint what does EFM encoding have to do with, that you're talking about?







quote:

quote:

Clint here is another reply from Plextor Support about SD2 EFM encoding.

----- Original Message -----
From: Plextor Support Team
To: Clarence A Lawson Sr
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 07:47 PM
Subject: RE: EFM encoding


All PlexWriters can read and write RAW, and Subchannel data just fine. Some software does not correctly follow the MMC standards for doing so. In particular CloneCD has problems with some of the PlexWriter CDRW drives.

I invite you to read the FAQ at http://www.blindwrite.com/faq.htm In particular read the part describing the problem with SafeDisc 1 and SafeDisc 2, perhaps this will give you a better idea of the issues.

Plextor Support Team - Paul



Regards
Cal



I wasn't talking about the ability to write and read in RAW mode or the ability to read the subchannel data of a CD. I know Plextor's do those two things, and well. EFM encoding has little or nothing to do with Subs and RAW writing. And yes I have read Blind Suite's FAQ. It has nothing to do with why Plextor recorders cannot write *correct*regular bit patterns.

_________________
You get what you pay for...



Regards
Cal

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 15
RE: Buying a Plextor - 4/26/2002 1:31:50 AM   
Clint


Posts: 2184
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Well, Clint what does EFM encoding have to do with, that you're talking about?




SD2. Eight to Fourteen Modulation (as I have said above in previous posts) is used during encoding, because the 8-bit 'magnetic' byte has to be modulated to a 14-bit 'optical' byte. Technically, this modulation is necessary to allow encoding of two consecutive 1s--which would be impossible with the scheme of pits and lands using 8-bit bytes (1s and 0s). In fact, the changes in reflectivity (as the laser light moves along the sequence of pits and lands) are coded as 1 channel bits. Two consecutive 1s are therefore not possible. Moreover, the 'lands' in between the 1s are represented by 0 channel bits, and the number of 0s represent the run-length. The bits in an optical byte are known as 'channel bits' to avoid confusion, and because they are transferred to the controller board through a specific channel. Furthermore, the fourteen-bit optical byte is provided three additional channel bits, known as merging bits--to eliminate transition conflicts between consecutive optical bytes. During the read process, the interface card demodulates the 14- bit optical code to the 8-bit code used by the computer--and all channel bit-level modulation and processing remain transparent to the user.
Now with that in mind, this is how SD2 works:
A regular bit pattern (such as XYXYXYXYXYXY...) fed into the EFM encoder can cause large values of the digital sum value in case the merging bits cannot reduce this value. The scrambler (something found in every CD-ROM/CD-RW) reduces this risk by converting the bits in byte 12 to 2351 of a Sector in a prediscribed way. The sectors mentioned above try in fact to overload the EFM encoder of the CD-Writer, because *AFTER* passing the scrambler the poor device has to write *REGULAR BIT PATTERNS* - something it really doesn't like. Thats how SD2 works. [Plextor recorders *CANNOT* write SD2.51 correctly due to additional weak sectors added by MacroVision, whereas SD2 *PRE* v2.51.021 the Plex 24X & and 40X could cope with those weak sectors.]

[Thats what Oliver Kastl (CloneCD creator) told us over at CloneClinic, when someone raised the question "Why can't the Plextor's 24x and 40x write new SD2?"]

I hope you finally understand the importance of a device to write "correct EFM encoding of regular bit patterns" when copying a SD2 protected CD.




_________________
You get what you pay for...

Edited by - Clint on 04/26/2002 01:37:14

(in reply to Javeryt)
Post #: 16
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