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RE: CMC bad?? - 9/20/2002 2:01:15 AM   
MP3Mogul


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Just on a laughing note, CMC must be your supplier! ROFLMAO, ok, all kidding aside, yes there is alot of misinformation out there, and companies, i.e. Memorex is a famous one, they produce CDR's by different manufacturers all the time, it's hard to get the same media twice in some cases, so I agree with you.


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RE: CMC bad?? - 9/20/2002 2:46:47 AM   
Graffitti

 

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Well.. technically, there're only 2 types of cd-rs, blue and gold dye. blue dye indicates cyanine, and gold indicates phato. I don't even know where all these other colors such as green came from. The color you see is due to the dye color plus the reflective layer.

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Post #: 18
RE: CMC bad?? - 9/20/2002 2:33:28 PM   
rjw

 

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Incorrect here are the most common dye types with there color
Cyanine -Blue
PhthaloCyanine (& Advanced PhtaloCyanine)- Transparent
Metallized Azo -Blue
Formazan(which is a mixture Cyanine and PhtaloCyanine) - Green
However remember this are dye colors not disc colors.
With the help of a reflective layer or coloured polycarbonate you can get even more different colors.
Now about TY being bad for useing cyanine (blue) dye's. At this moment most Cyanine dyes are so much improved that they will last 20-50 years. Only the first generations cyanine disc's go bad in less then 10 years.
Metal Azo which is also blue is claimed to hold the data allmost as long as gold.

About cdridentifier/ATIP CODES disc recognition.

Cdridentifier uses the ATIP code. And if every companny would follow the rules then it should recognize the manufacturers correct.
Now it is known that some compannies use illegal or other compannies ATIP. Because of this they will not have to pay for the costs of the patents of Philips+ Sony + TY.
The bad point is that most writers only look for the ATIP to deside which write strategy is used. Now a disc made with an incorrect ATIP code isn't writen optimal because the disc isn't completely the same as the original. So more problems can occure. Now the better writers (plextor yamaha teac) will continue monitor the writing which will take away the bigest problems. However this is the same reason why this drives maybe slower as the competition but still deliver higher qualtiy writings.
Here's an example of illegal ATIP use.

Taiyo Yuden has never made disc's for Kruidvat or the ALDI brand Lifetec(MEDION) however some disc's do have there atip codes. These disc's also don't look like TY's no frosted inner part but a full transparent inner part.


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Post #: 19
RE: CMC bad?? - 9/22/2002 12:38:21 PM   
Clint


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...and Phase Change - Silver looking.


Maybe your shop needs to get more of the better media in? I personally prefer Cyanine dye, it works best everywhere, lasts longest, produces lowest C1 errors (only if good quality Cyanine dye is used [TY etc...]) It may not record the fastest, but for me quality far overides speed, dunno about all the "buy the cheapest media on sale this week" people out there... BTW, blue looks the best especially, Metal AZO [:p]





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Post #: 20
RE: CMC bad?? - 9/22/2002 3:48:21 PM   
rjw

 

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Ehh Phase changing are cd-rw not cd-r's and the discussion was about cd-r dyes.
Now about Cyanine isn't the best option infact
the advanced PhthaloCyanine (MITSUI GOLD/MEDICAL) and Formazan (KODAK GOLD) and on a bit lower rate AZO (MITSUBITSHI)seem to can handle much better aging as the Cyanine disc's.
About error rate when writing again Formazon and the advance PhthaloCyanine work better then the others.
AZO series of Mitsubitshi Chemicals behave quite strange according to the behaviour of the other dyes.
Very low speeds(1-4x) work most times great with AZO. At this point the disc's show to be very good however when writing faster and faster most times quality seems to decrease.
Also some burners can't handle the Mitsubitshi AZO dye's very well.
But then again some players won't work with allmost anything else.
If you want the best disc's you can get these days then chek out Mitsui Gold ULTRA/ Mitsui Medical. Then again these disc's cost allmost 3 times as much as I pay for Verbatim Metal Azo disc's which are also very good in combination with my plextor drive and slow writing speeds.



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Post #: 21
RE: CMC bad?? - 9/22/2002 11:38:14 PM   
Dolphinius_Rex


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RJW: WOW! you sure seem to know what you're talking about! where can I get some more utilities that'll test my discs? I don't know too much about the different type of errors that are discussed on this forum constantly. Any help would be appreciated!

I still don't understand how CMC discs can rate so low! The only problems I ever have come from Ritech, and that's just because their 90+min CD-Rs don't burn up to 99min very nicely...only about 93min :( I just upgraded my LiteON 40x12x48x firmware to the latest, so maybe it'll work better now (fingers crossed). On a side note, the ProDisc 90+min CD-Rs go up to about 97min on my burner (though I was expecting 99:59!) Looks like I need to do more testing!

*most* of what I say comes from personal experience, but sometimes I post things that I hear, maybe I shouldn't. For example, on one topic I posted that Princo is being sued by Philips because they tried selling 2x DVD-Rs as 4x DVD-Rs...as it turns out, that was just phillips tryin to de-face Princo because they didn't pay some sort of tax to them (???). However, I've had customers come in and tell me that Princo DVD-Rs don't work on stand alone DVD-Players (not likely more then a couple of models cause trouble, but I don't know).

By the way, I'm going on nearly 500 CD-Rs made by CMC burned (in either Audio or PSX game format) without any problems. Most of them burned at 32x (the playstation ones at 24x).

and aside from the old (4-5 year old) BASF CMC CD-Rs, I've never had a CMC CD-R die un-expectedly on me.


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RE: CMC bad?? - 9/23/2002 1:12:01 AM   
MP3Mogul


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RJW: After reading your post regarding the quality of AZO discs falling at higher write speeds, I did a few tests: I tested all of the AZO discs that I have written with the CRW-F1, all discs were written at 16X. Each of these discs failed to produce any errors at all, Zero Errors! So I'm not sure that writing at a higher speed with AZO discs (Mitsi Chem) produces higher error rates. Excellent post regarding the dye's though, we appreciate the info!


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Post #: 23
RE: CMC bad?? - 9/23/2002 7:04:54 AM   
Dolphinius_Rex


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ok, I've come to the conclusion that all CD-Rs are wacky. Regardless of parent factory... they're ALL wacky!


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RE: CMC bad?? - 9/23/2002 12:36:05 PM   
rjw

 

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Mp3Mogul it is about the C1 error rate. On most writers this rate is really low when burned at slow speeds. Now when going faster the disc's can still be called good but are not as good as when written on the lowest speed. Remember that this is based on most writers it can allways happen that one type of writer writes AZO media better at higher speeds but I never have seen this.
You probally checked C2 errors.(NERO SPEED) And with the Yamaha's quality writings and AZO media you probally won't find any C2 errors.
Most writers will not cause c2 errors with AZO media. And since AZO media can last. (I put some disc's in the sunlight and checked them befor and after with my friends Lite On. We couldn't find any increase in the errors at that moment. At this moment the cd's are back outside my home again and will be checked in a couple of days again. (Each 2 days for C2 errors and one in a time for c1 errors. (Since I don't have a Lite On drive myself.) )

So if you have a Lite On burner over there then try checking with WSES for C-1 errors and then you might find out the effect I was talking about.

Now about checking media
The link to wses is on cdrinfo. Just look under software. Since I don't know the exact position try searching yourself. If you can't find it mail me. By the way for WSES on this site you will need winrar 3.0 to extract the files. Now read carefully the instructions before ussing. And never click on the clear eeprom command or you have one dead Lite On.



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Post #: 25
RE: CMC bad?? - 9/23/2002 1:54:52 PM   
Clint


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I chucked in phase change for completeness, but you're right, everyone was talking about CD-R dye's.

Also I must add, with AZO dye, Lite-On's LTR-32125W, 40125W and 48125W don't seem to like metal/super AZO media and don't produce very good results...

Yeah, MP3, CDSpeed's ScanDisc is by far an inferior method to check for errors (be they C1/C2) compared to WSES etc. They show actual error rates in much more detail, and is very conclusive on what drives, CD-R's produce the best quality burns....

@rjw, Do Mitsui make the Gold's in 80min? I can only get the Mitsui Gold 74min 10 pack jewel case AUD$7 (not sure the cert. speed) but that is really very, very cheap for any media where I live, let alone what you claim to be the best. So you recon get 'em??






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RE: CMC bad?? - 9/23/2002 5:25:16 PM   
rjw

 

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Mitsui Gold Ultra/PRO STUDIO (24x-80 minutes)(europe)/ Mitsui Gold (US)(24x-74/80 minutes)in ink jet /thermal transfer and normal version.
Mitsui Golden dye (74/80-minutes)/ Mitsui X-tra files gold.(80 minutes)
The first ones are the ones to get and which are pretty hard to get here in Holland and which will cost around the 14 euro's (for 10
These are the ones that scored a 1 for disc quality in most german magazines.(1 is the best 5 is the worst)
Combining these results it can be concluded that for most burners the Gold Ulra/Pro Studio/Gold US are one of the best cd-r's out there.

7AUD is about 4,17 euro which is really cheap. I would say try a box. Since you have a Lite On check the results with WSES.
They should be really good as long as you burn them at the rated speed but probally also with higher speeds.
My experience with Mitsui disc's is really good. Specially when my philips 3610 writer was allmost dead and I could only write Mitsui disc's now other brand it would write without problems. Also the 12x and 16x disc's could be written at 24x with my plextor 24/10/40A without any problems and withouth high error rates.

Quality disc's can sometimes be bought very cheap. Two months ago I could buy Metal Azo disc's very cheap(5 euro's a box) and now I have to pay more than the double for the same disc's at the same store only this is a new batch and this batch was more expensive so the disc's costs more. 3 Months ago I could buy KODAK Ultima's for 5 euro's a box. Not as good as the gold ones from Kodak but still nice for that price. Now Kodak has quite with the cd-r bussiness and the same shop is asking the double for the last packs of KODAK's.
What I am saying is sometimes it is just a question of being at the right place at the right time.


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Post #: 27
RE: CMC bad?? - 9/27/2002 1:12:14 PM   
BillyG

 

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I have used CMC made CD-Rs that I picked up by accident (when I didnt know better, and through blank CD-R trades)and I use them for "standard duty" things like copying CD's for my car stereo and quick backups and trades.

I think the 40X speed CMC's are a little better (AT&T), but the quality is still hit and miss. Now and then I get a dud disk. I wouldnt reccomend using any CMC made media for anything you want to keep for a long long time.

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Post #: 28
RE: CMC bad?? - 9/27/2002 3:03:47 PM   
Graffitti

 

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Same here, I'd use them for mode 1 data cds, but won't really use them for any mode 2 cds.

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RE: CMC bad?? - 9/28/2002 1:56:17 AM   
MP3Mogul


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The CMC discs also make nice windchimes!


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RE: CMC bad?? - 9/28/2002 2:24:06 AM   
Graffitti

 

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I dunno why, but I really wouldn't consider CMC discs to be entirely bad. It's just that their speed rating is often times overrated from my experience. They should be pretty good if you keep the recording speed down to around 24x or 32, and make sure you get the ones with a good laquer or label on top.

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Post #: 31
RE: CMC bad?? - 9/28/2002 12:33:51 PM   
Laffin Assassin


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quote:
Originally posted by MP3Mogul

The CMC discs also make nice windchimes!


LOL


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